A response to ‘proud incestophobe’

Well folks, some guy calling himself ‘proud incestophobe’ has left not just one, but THREE comments on my blog. I approved these comments only because I believe in free speech, and just as I have allowed him to have his say, I am going to have mine in response to what he has said.

The first comment he left was in response to my article the line was never more clear:

You both sicken me. Him more than you, for obvious reasons, but you still sicken me. Incest is disgusting.

For the record, I’m gay, I’m into sex, I’m kinky, and I wouldn’t have been born if it weren’t for incest.

You want to outstretch your hand to the LGBT community? Well this is us, slapping that hand back. We love our real allied communities, the ace/aro/spec folk, the intersex folk and the polyamorus folk (and the kinky people that aren’t disgusting). We’re not Allies to literal perverts. You’re disgusting.

Okay, this sets the scene, he wouldn’t have been born if it wasn’t for incest, but he is against incest because it’s disgusting and that makes me disgusting too… apparently. So according to his logic, he shouldn’t have been born?

Notice he calls us ‘literal perverts’… on what basis does he call us perverts? Oh yea, that’s right, his disgust. Last I checked, we too fall under the umbrella of ‘consenting adults’, and therefore, consanguinamory is an orientation, not a perversion.

While he has every right to feel disgusted at the thought of doing incest himself, because like any other sexual expression, it’s not for everyone. He does NOT however have the right to brand us all ‘perverts’. His logic is no better than the logic homophobes would use against him.

The second comment he left was in response to yes, daughters are actual grown women capable of making their own decisions:


She’s barely an adult. She’s still a teenager. She’s the same age as my teenage cousin! She’s a flipping teenage girl!

It’s abuse. It’s peadophilia, and it’s disgusting. An 18 year old victim of sexual abuse and neglect got groomed and raped by her father, and you’re defending that sicko? You disgust me.

Cousin x cousin is bad enough (I wouldn’t have been born without this). Sibling x sibling is even worse. But child x parent? It’s abuse plain and simple, he should be locked up. Throw away the key.

You disgust me, truly. Delete your blog. Rethink your life choices.

I certainly will not delete my blog regardless of how disgusted you are. The fact that you have had to resort to capital letters and insults only demonstrates how weak your argument actually is.

Somebody sleeping with an 18 year old is pedophilia? Really? On what planet? Last I checked 18 is old enough to consent anywhere on Earth. Pedophilia is when an adult grooms and sexually assults and molests a CHILD. At 18, by definition, she was NOT A CHILD. Furthermore, the fact that she had been sexually abused by someone else previously does not detract from her ability, as an adult to consent to sex. If you would argue otherwise, you would be forced to say that victims of sexual abuse and assault could never consent to sex with anyone. This is obviously false. As a young ADULT woman, she was able to make her own decisions.

By the way, I know from personal experience that there is nothing wrong with parent/offspring relationships… I was in one. Yes, it was my own choice at 19 years of age, I was not groomed, I was not molested, I was not abused in any way… I simply fell in love with my father for the man he is. I did a lot of soul searching before I understood that some people were just wired up this way, without Westermarck Effect. While I am no longer with him romantically, I am very much in support of others who have similar experiences.

Would I have made this entire blog, been a shoulder to cry on for other consangs who had nowhere else to turn, would I have helped to build our community online and helped people to understand themselves and their consang relatives better if I was a victim? Short answer: No, I do these things as a service to the minority I belong to because I want to help others, and because I am needed. We do not ask to be what we are, but we exist and we deserve equal rights. I’m only sorry you cannot see that.

Oh, and here was the third and final comment, posted in response to ‘handling coming out‘:

Don’t appropriate LGBT terms. You don’t ‘come out’, you just admit to being gross.

And flip off, you think someone supporting same sex relationships mean they support insest? That’s homophobic as heck. And you want us to be ‘allies’. Sickening.

And just if any of you perverts were wondering- I’d be the worst case scenario. Or as I like to call it, decent human being with a functional brain.

To come out is not a term exclusive to LGBT people, it applies to all sexual minorities, including us. For the record, much of our terminology has evolved on it’s own over the last few years, coming out just happens to be one we share with everyone else. Here are some of our commonly used terms:

Consang – Abbreviated form of ‘consanguinamorous’ – Being romantically and/or sexually attracted to one or more family members.

Bisang – Abbreviated form of ‘bisanguinamorous’ – Being about equally attracted to related and unrelated people

Regular – Person who is exclusively attracted to unrelated people

GSA – Genetic Sexual Attraction – What occurs around 50% of the time when people are separated and reunite in adulthood. A form of consanguinamory.

Non-GSA – Consanguinamory occurring naturally without separation and reunion

Needless to say, these aren’t borrowed words.

Homophobic? The homosexual consangs I know would disagree with you, and I’ve known quite a few over the years, some of them are my friends. In fact, anyone who knows me knows that I am not homophobic, quite the opposite actually. Furthermore, I did not say that all people who support LGBT automatically support us too, I said that the arguments against LGBT and the arguments against consanguinamory are THE SAME ARGUMENTS, and that the only separate argument is the ‘mutant babies argument’. My point is that people should support CONSENTING ADULTS, period.

Overall, my point is that you can find me as disgusting as you want to, but it is NOT going to stop me from posting and doing what I do to help others. I’m not going to get upset and stop posting because some random person on the internet has decided to try to insult me. I also am not going to take your insults personally, I just hope you read more of my stuff and at least try to understand our perspective even if you’re grossed out by incest yourself.

Again, my hand goes out to those of other sexual minority groups who may wish to be allies. If anyone reading this is unsure or has questions, don’t hesitate to ask, that’s what I am here for.

Consang themed Christmas Cards

There is just one at present, but I will make more and add them to this page as and when. They’re JPG so you can open then in paint, type your message in the blank space, and then save the changes and e-mail them to your friends. To download the card, right click the image and save as.


Handling Coming Out

For most of us most of the time, it’s plain and simple safer to stay in the closet. That said, there are many reasons why someone may want to come out, at least partially to close friends and other family members. The stress of hiding everything all of the time is after all a massive burden for us, one which we shouldn’t have to bear in the first place, but seeing as we do, it is more than understandable that some of us wish to lighten the load.

The problem in coming out is glaringly obvious: we usually have no idea what kind of reception we’re going to get. It can vary from overwhelming support to the recipient of the new information wanting to turn us in to the police, and of course every reaction in between. Naturally, this is a great source of stress for anyone who is considering, or is in the process of coming out.

BEST CASE SCENARIO: It is entirely possible that the person you come out to is an ally, or another consang. If this is the case, then your security is safe, that person will intuitively understand, and you’ll likely be able to discuss any aspect of your relationship with them. This is the most straightforward instance of coming out. If you’re fortunate enough to have this scenario, then be grateful and treasure your ally as you would family.

NEXT TO BEST: The person you come out to is unsure, isn’t actually against the concept, but isn’t really with you either. They won’t report you, but they’ll probably have a few doubts. In time you can win them over and they will become allies, after all, once they’ve known a healthy and happy consang couple, they have good reason to be in the ally camp. These are the easiest people to bring over to your side, once they get the chance to see how you function.

MIDDLE GROUND: This person is in general against consang, but may very much like you personally. They’re likely struggling to come to terms with what they’ve heard and they likely have great trouble reconciling what they know of you as a person with what they believe about incest. They’re likely to worry about genetic problems, social problems…etc. This person is unlikely to report you, but they’re very likely to disapprove and feel triggered by your presence and perhaps say things in anger that they do not mean, and then feel guilty for reacting so badly in retrospect. This person CAN be brought around, but you may need assistance from someone in the community to act as a go-between and a bank of knowledge. Many are more likely to accept the information from a stranger than they are from you as they percieve it as being self-serving.

NEXT TO WORST: This person is VERY against you, they percieve you as a threat to the gene pool and they will not see you in the same light as before, they’re unable to grasp that you’re the same person they’ve known for years. There is a POSSIBILITY that they’ll call the cops, but they’re more likely to cut you out of their lives, or spread the information to their friends and family, causing you scorn. They’re likely to verbally or even physically attack you. While it is not impossible to make an ally out of these people, it is extremely difficult, DO NOT ATTEMPT unless you’re sure you can do it.

WORST CASE SCENARIO: This person has an extreme incestophobic reaction, to the degree that the information repulses them to such a degree that they immediately call the police. They’ve deluded themsleves into thinking that they’re doing you and your family a favour by doing so, they cannot be reasoned with, at all. The more aggressive with most definitely attack.


Consider carefuly, has this person previously expressed any incestophobic views to you? If they haven’t, then how do they react to LGBT people? This is a good marker for general open-mindedness. If they react badly to gay and transgendered people, then the chances are, they’ll react even worse to you… do don’t even think about it, this is a serious danger zone! However, even if they’re LGBT supporting, that still is not a guarantee that they will also support consanguinamory, but it does increase the likelihood that they will at least hear you out before deciding what to do with the information once their mind has processed it.

The best way to test the water, is to do so in the most general way possible. That is, you show them a news story you read, say that you’d like to hear their opinion on it. The news story should be about an incest couple who were prosecuted. If they say something along the lines of ‘Fucking perverts…’ you know that this person is NOT safe to come out to, and you can quietly let the subject drop and you will not have revealed your own orientation. If however they react with ‘What business of that is the state?’ or’ I feel sorry for them, they did nothing wrong’ then you’re on far safer ground. This is surely a better way to go than just jumping in head first with not a clue as to how the person feels.

That said, bear in mind that this isn’t a 100% guarantee that the other person is going to react positively, it just means that they are quite unlikely to report you. Like, they may be comfortable with consanguinamory in the abstract, but feel differently when it is someone they’re close to. This is actually more common than you’d think!


First of all, as much as you’re probably shitting yourself thinking they might turn you in, take a step back and rationally assess if they’re likely to do that. If this person has known you for a long time, or is another relative, then the chances are less as long as you previously had a good relationship with them. They know you, they LOVE you, but they’re having a hard time processing what they just heard and reconciling that with their ingrained beliefs about incest.

They may have flown off the handle, yelled at you, called you every name under the sun… and then gone back home and cried. They may not know how else to respond. They may wonder if they know who you are any more. I’ve seen this time and again, I’ve helped families in this kind of situation.

Usually the person doesn’t even know what is triggering them to such a degree, but it ALWAYS boils down to something positive rather than negative. I can see you shaking your head. But it is none the less true, negative reactions always stem from a positive belief or value. For instance, in the last family I helped, the person was struggling because they wanted their siblings to be able to live a ‘normal life’,  and feared that they wouldn’t be able to if they were together. Even though that person intellectually knew that their reaction was causing pain for themselves and everyone else, it boiled down to wanting the best, out of love.

In order to resolve these negative reactions, the individual who is having the negative reaction must uproot and find what exactly is causing them to feel that way. It is not always easy, and it is not always quick, but it CAN be done. Moreso, the person must WANT to change the way they feel, that in itself is half the battle!

If you think a friend or relative is going through this as a result of your coming out, you should seek assistance from someone in the community, preferably someone with extensive knowledge of consanguinamory, good people skills and empathy, and a dose of good intuition. If you’re ever asked to serve in this capacity on behalf of someone else, think long and hard before accepting, this isn’t like debating some random person on tumblr, reddit or facebook where the concepts are abstract and the debate is intellectual This is peoples lives you’re directly getting involved in, and you got to know what you’re doing or the results could be disasterous. It is important that you KNOW that you’re up to the job before you accept. If you’re not, there is no shame in that, but BE HONEST with yourself and your friend. I cannot stress how important that is. You can still be a supportive friend on the sideline.

When they don’t want/aren’t ready to listen

Sometimes it happens that when someone hears about consanguinamory, they shut their ears and simply condemn you. Sometimes, this is temporary while they process the information, and sometimes it is long lasting. Thing is, you cannot FORCE a person to listen, no matter how misguided or irrational their thoughts are, and raising the volume, however tempting is going to make things worse, so don’t start shouting, walk away instead, telling them calmly that you’ll speak to them again when they’re calm. Sometimes it is best to let them cool down for a while and try again, people who are wound up, emotional and convinced that they’re right are not likely to open their ears to you, so it’s best to let the temperature cool some before you retry. The tip is knowing when to speak (and what to say when you do) and when to shut up.

If you leave them alone (for a few days or even weeks) and let them process, they may later come to you and ask you more questions, be prepared to give honest and thoughtful answers. This way, they’ll be more receptive, let THEM come to YOU. Silence can be more effective than a screaming argument any day of the week. If they come to you, it was THEIR idea, and they would not ask questions if they do not want to know the answers. Apply no pressure to the person, and let them guide the conversation. It may take many cycles of conversation and silence before you talk them around, but whatever you do, DON’T insist that you need to talk, however badly you need to get your point across, you will only hamper progress.

If they cut you off entirely

Sadly, I’ve seen this happen to people. Sometimes a person just CANNOT accept and be around you any more. It is a massive loss, both to you and to them. Ultimately, it is their decision, just as you cannot enforce conversation, you also cannot enforce contact. This will be very painful to accept, but necessary if they’re so badly againt you. It’s an outcome nobody wants, and saying goodbye to a person you love is not easy, it’s almost like mourning a death, BUT there is the background hope that some day, somehow, they will see the error of their ways. Remember it is THEIR problem, not yours.

If you’re reported to the police

First of all, stay calm… and give a ‘no comment’ interview if you’re arrested. Remember, without proof, it is one persons claim against anothers, and you’re innocent until proven guilty, that is the law. Without proof or a confession, there is a very strong chance it won’t reach court because there is not enough evidence for a conviction. If you suspect that you may be arrested, ensure you do not leave physical evidence around your home, like, incinerate any used condoms, and sterilize any sex toys you may have. Change your bed sheets, and move yours or your other halfs belongings into a different room to give the appearance that you sleep separately…etc. Hopefully it will never come to this, but if it does, this is how you handle it.

Now, for those of you with biological children together, it’s more complicated, they are after all living proof that you’ve had a relationship… or are they? Amazingly there is a loophole around even this. In many places, while it may be illegal for you to have sex with a relative, it is NOT illegal to have children with them if conceived by a method other than sexual intercourse. Hence, turkey baster concieved children to close relatives are perfectly legal…. go figure! There is a chance that the court won’t buy it, but it can’t hurt to try… remember, without absolute proof… you can get away scott free depending how good your lawyer is.

In conclusion

Coming out is risky business, but it CAN be done and even if you do run into problems, they usually CAN be overcome. Keep your chin up, because it’s rarely as bad as you imagine, and there IS a community right here to help and support you. You are not alone.



Yes, daughters are actual grown women who can make their own decisions!

Unfortunately, some dimwits in a courtroom appear to think otherwise. So, let’s examine the lastest round of incestophobic persecution, this time in the State of Washington.

Two attorneys sparred over the question of whether incest is really all that bad during a sentencing hearing in Island County Superior Court Thursday.

Good, society needs to see that there is more than one side to the story.

Although only a difference of two months were at stake, prosecution and defense attorneys argued aggressively over how much time Jed I. Starr should spend in prison. Starr, on Oak Harbor resident, pleaded guilty by way of an Alford’s plea to incest Nov. 1. An Alford’s plea means he doesn’t admit his guilt but realizes he would be found guilty at trial.

He shouldn’t have been on trial in the first place, let alone put into prison.

Starr had a sexual relationship with his daughter, beginning when she was 18 years old, and impregnated her, court documents state.

Stop right there. 18 years old. By any definition of the word, this lady is an adult, and as an adult she has the right to have sex with and procreate with whoever she wishes to.

In the end, San Juan County Judge Katherine Loring, who was filling in for Judge Alan Hancock, agreed with the prosecution and sentenced Starr to 14 months in prison; the standard sentence range was from 12 to 14 months.

Which is outrageous. 14 months in jail, for falling in love with the ‘wrong’ woman and having a sexual relationship with her. Any idiot could see that this is a grave injustice, especially since this ‘crime’ has no victim.

Loving said she found the defense’s argument that there was no victim to be “offensive” and the parent-daughter power dynamic was a key component to the crime. She also said Starr did not seem to express any remorse for his daughter.

She can be as offended as she likes, it doesn’t make her right. Can a GROWN WOMAN consent to sex, or can’t she? Just because he is her father does not change the fact. I know, from experience! Furthermore, why should he express remorse when he has caused no suffering? All he was doing is what normal human beings do the world over, having sex with his partner, the fact she is also his daughter is beside the point!

During the hearing, Steve McKay, Starr’s attorney, compared incest laws to archaic sodomy laws of the not-so-distant past and argued that there’s no rational reason for sex between adult, consenting relatives to be illegal, beyond the “visceral” reaction to the thought of incest.

I fully agree with him, and I’ve made this very same point in my blog numerous times. That something is unpopular does NOT mean it should be criminalized just because most people would not want to do it. Tyranny of the masses is STILL TYRANNY.

He said the state’s incest statute is rarely used and three other states have repealed such laws.

If that is true, this is good news. For the record, Rhode Island has never had incestophobic legislation beyond consangs being unable to marry legally.

“What evil is it we are trying to protect society from?” he asked rhetorically

Good question, shame it was never answered.

McKay even quoted former presidential candidate Rick Santorum: “If the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual sex within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery. You have the right to anything.”

Santorum, however, was not saying he wanted any of those acts to be legal.

He may not have intended to say it should be legal, he was simply stating a fact. One MUST accept that some people have alternative orientations and needs from what is considered the norm, unless you want the state to legislate what exactly is and is not permitted in the bedroom. Here is the deal, you don’t have to AGREE with what other people want to do, but you can accept that others have the right to persue these relationships.

The defense attorney also focused on the culpability of Starr’s daughter, saying she was just as guilty as Starr is.

I however do not see either of them as ‘guilty’ of anything. All they did is have a relationship, which was, a mutual decision.

Deputy Prosecutor Michael Safstrom argued that the young woman was vulnerable and desperate for a parent’s affection when Starr began having sex with her. She spent her childhood being abused and neglected by her mother and in a series of foster parents; she also was a victim of sexual abuse as a child and had overdosed three different times.

She had a bad childhood which included sexual abuse, millions of people do, but this DOES NOT mean that they’re incapable of deciding when and with whom they want to have sex once they are of age. Nobody would make this same argument if she had been sleeping with an unrelated man. If we followed the illogic to it’s natural conclusion, we would believe that sexual abuse victims are unable to consent to any sex. This is demonstrably false.

The woman had never met Starr until he suddenly showed up in her life when she was 18 after she was hospitalized for a seizure. She was homeless and lonely. She needed a caring parent, Safstrom said, but instead Starr moved her to Whidbey, supplied her with alcohol and had sex with her.

So he took her in and he cared for her, as any loving parent would do. That they later formed a relationship IS NOT proof he is some vile abuser. Also note ‘he supplied her with alcohol’… so, are we saying she didn’t have a choice in whether or not to drink an alcoholic beverage. Last I checked, in nearly ALL countries, the legal drinking age is… you guessed it, 18. She was old enough to buy her own if she wanted to.

Is it so unusual for a man to buy the woman he loves a bottle of wine now? Notice how the words have been twisted to cast this man in the worst possible light. Oh, and just because they drank together DOES NOT MEAN that they had sex just BECAUSE of the alcohol. I’m sure most of my readers will agree, just because one is drunk, does not mean we jump on and copulate with the nearest member of the opposite sex. It doesn’t work that way, even for regulars.

Safstrom said Starr has consistently denied he was at fault and blamed his daughter. In a telephone call, Starr claimed what happened wasn’t a big deal “because in the state of Washington you can legally marry a goat now,” the prosecutor said.

That doesn’t seem to be blaming anyone, he was stating that it wasn’t, or at least shouldn’t have been a big deal. Oh, and if it is TRUE that you can marry a goat in that State, then those laws are even more fucked up than I imagined. However, I do not know and he may just have been taking the piss out of the situation, knowing he was going to get jailed anyway, no matter what he said.

Safstrom said the child who resulted from the incest is also a victim and will have to live with the knowledge of her parentage for the rest of her life.

That is NOT the fault of the childs parents, if you remove the stigma, you remove the need for such shame. The child, in this instance, is a victim of incestophobic bigotry. The state has removed the father from this child. How horrible is THAT!

Four people spoke in support of Starr during the hearing and others wrote letters describing him as a caring person and a hard worker. One woman said he’s an amazing person who does everything he can to help others and is an amazing father.

EXACTLY. So what they’ve done is take a productive and valued member of society, and put him in jail for having the ‘wrong’ relationship. That four people came to his defence is amazing though, and goes to show that not everyone is a hater. We must remember, we have allies, probably more than we realize. Would this people have said this of this man if he was a predatory figure? No, they would most certainly have not.

Starr spoke before he was sentenced. He said he was sorry for any pain he caused anyone, but was “deeply hurt” by Safstrom’s characterization of his actions.

As any sane person would be. Stafstrom took the facts, twisted them and made him out to be some sexual predator when that is clearly NOT the case.

“He has no idea what really happened,” he said.

Of course he didn’t, how could he, he had been brainwashed by society into believing a bunch of incestophobic nonsense and so every fact he was presented with would have been run through a certain filter which distorted his interpretation of those facts. So he put 2 and 2 together and came up with 5.

In a statement to the Department of Corrections, Starr wrote that he and his daughter fell in love and had a child together.

Exactly, they fell in love. Why should this be a crime at all? It should not be. There are THREE victims here, Starr, his daughter, and their child. The latest victims of state incestophobic persecution.

You can help!

Have you current or past experience of consanguinamory? If so, how would you feel about sharing your story with the world? I am not speaking of merely sending me a textual account of what happened, this time it is much more. I am asking if you’d like your story to be heard by a multinational audience. Your details and identity will be kept in the strictest of confidence.

Our good friend and ally, Kirok, has asked me to make this appeal on his behalf, as he wishes to make a presentation on the subject to give this issue more publicity. if we ever want to gain acceptance, sometimes, we must take risks. Now. I am personally willing to take that risk, and so, I have volunteered to partake in his project. If his budget allows him and his team to travel to the UK, I am willing to be interviewed by them.

My point is, we must have courage the stand up for what is right. If we don’t stand up and be counted anonymously, how the hell do we hope to gain our very birthright… to be what we are without discrimination against us? Sure, you’re frightened, we all are, but without standing up to that fear, it’s source will not disappear. We can, and we must take part in projects just like this one.

Our battle is not going to be either quick or easy, but hearts and minds can and will be changed by our words. Our love, and our morality as human beings will be demonstrated by our willingness to show them to others. It is impossible this way for us to be dehumanized and tossed aside as we have been for centuries. If we are to pave the way for the next generations of consangs, then it is our rightful place to set the first stones.

The movement is bigger than me or you, but it begins with each of us having the courage to stand up and be counted, and right now we have only each other and our allies to rely upon. Please, make the right choice for all consangs.

If you wish to contact Kirok, you may do so at:  kirok411@protonmail.com

The line was never more clear

As I sit here reflecting on what has transpired these last few days, an experience which left me feeling emotionally drained and more than a little disturbed, I thought it important to share with you all what exactly has made me feel this way. The line has never been more clear, the line between right and wrong that is.

You see, a short time ago, I was contacted by an active pedophile, one who was, and presumably is still molesting his 7 year old niece. Consider this a trigger warning, because the e-mails I recieved are quite unpleasant and are copied and pasted below, I would advise you to skip them if you’re likely to suffer emotional distress as a result of reading them. Part of me really hopes I have been well and truly trolled, or that this whole exercise was some test by some intelligence agency, but I don’t feel that this was the case. I think he was the genuine article, sadly. He hoped to persuade me that pedos were also misunderstood victims of society, a belief which, as you all know, is completely baseless and obvious BS.

So, as I have shared them on our forum, I will share the e-mail exchange with the world. I want to show you how these people think, how they justify it to themselves. Just as importantly, I wish to show non-consangs the clear and obvious distinction between consangs and pedophiles. For far too long we’ve been treated and regarded as the same as people who betray children in the worst way imaginable. We can be, and should be valuable allies in putting a stop to child abuse worldwide, and this can only be made possible by legalizing incest so that we can play a more active role in child protection.

The e-mail exchange:

John wrote:

I saw that u are using protonmail, which makes me more comfortable sending this to u directly. I also LOVE incest… this little girl is my 7yo niece. -John

He had included 3 images, and for obvious reasons I did not open them. I wrote him back:

I am not even going to open these images, she is 7! You disgust me, and you’re an insult to all people who fall in love with their ADULT relatives. I want all consenting adults to have equality, but for perverts like you who abuse and molest little children? hell no, I hope she reports your abuse to the authorities and to her parents. How dare you even contact me and send me child porn, you disgusting waste of life! Take your pedophilia somewhere else, preferably shove it up your own arse and die. Now fuck off and do not contact me again.

He wrote:

Shove it up my own arse? Sounds like u opened the pictures. Can u tell me… did u at least like what u saw? And before u pass judgement… the first time I made her cum was at 5yo. Yes it’s possible and yes she loved it.

At this point I began hoping that this was troll, after all, we all know that children can’t have an orgasm, as I pointed out in my next message:

No. I did not open them, I didn’t have to, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out what you stand for, and no, people can’t get orgasms until they’re pubescent at the very least (and even then it should be by mastubration or at the very least by exploration with another person around the same age group, not by some sicko abusing them), it’s biologically not possible for a prepubescent to have an orgasm, their sexual organs are not mature enough for that function yet. You’re fucking abusing your neice you sick fuck! I tell you what, I hope to God you get found out, and her parents discover what you’re doing to her, she has no say in it does she. She doesn’t want to disappoint her uncle, you’ve probably terrified her about being taken away if she tells. You probaby have the confidence of your sibling whose child you’re abusing, they have no idea what you’re doing. How would you feel as a small child who doesn’t understand what’s happening to have a trusted adult fiddling with your private parts? You disgust me on so many levels. Judge you? Yes, I judge you, I judge you as a morally bankrupt individual who has convinced himself that his victim wants the abuse. Do yourself and your neice a favour and get the fuck away from her. I support incest, but I do NOT support child abuse. Period.

I half wasn’t expecting a rely, but I got one:

What if I told u… u are wrong. A 5yo can cum and I have a video to prove it. Would that make u feel differently about this? Think about all the incest adult relationships facing society to judge them a certain way. Love can happen with kids also. It’s not abuse if we both enjoy it. I don’t force her. She is curious and always comes to me to play. I’m sure u already made up ur mind though… I’m terrible and I’m the devil. It isn’t like that at all. As I said… I have a video to disprove what u believe about biology. Question is… are u open minded enough to watch it?

I decided to take a different approach and curb the profanity, for no other reason than possibly to change his mind and get him to stop fiddling with his niece:

I have no interest in watching your sick CP video, a child has to be abused for it to even exist. Whether kids are able to orgasm or not isn’t the point (so no, such a video would NOT change my opinion), what what IS the point is that even if you aren’t physically forcing her, you’re still very much taking advantage of her, and that is abuse whether you want to believe it or not. You’re an adult, by default you’re in a position of authority over her, this makes meaningful consent impossible. Please reconsider what you’re doing for her sake. There is plenty of evidence of the psychological trauma caused by being molested as a child, if you have any doubt over what I’m saying to you, go read what survivors of childhood sexual abuse have to say and how it has impacted their lives. THAT is what you’re doing to your neice, even if it doesn’t seem that way to you right now. You have an illness, and you should be seeking treatment, a healthy adult does not view a child in any way sexual. The very thought of it disgusts me to the core. You know, there are many pedophiles who do seek treatment because they do not want to harm a child. I respect them more than I respect someone like you who has crossed the line. There is a whole world of difference between consensual adult incest and what you’re doing. Yes, people like me get discriminated against too, but it is because of misunderstanding and lack of education. BUT, we’re all adults going into these relationships, consent is possible between adult relatives as it is possible between any adults. Your niece CANNOT consent, she is much too young. That’s the difference here. Just think about what I’ve said, I am hoping that you seek help and leave that little girl alone.

It all fell on deaf ears, and what he said next floored me:

The video is with a girl and her mom, so chill out. What has u convinced that all sexual contact with a child is abuse? Just as u try to make society change their view about adult incest, u are here judging sex with the younger ones as being sick and twisted. Have u ever stopped to assume that maybe society is wrong about sex with kids? Yes some of it is abuse. Yes some of it is forced… but not all of it is either. Some of it is love and fun. And for the record, her mom is my sister and we have a hidden incest relationship. As I said… a video can change ur whole perspective on this, but it seems like u already have ur mind made up. I was hoping u would be more understanding. Sigh

The sister knew, and was involved with the abuser. I was enraged, and sent him one final message:

Hold up a minute… you’re telling me that you’re in a secret relationship with your sister, and that your sister KNOWS what you’re doing to your niece, and she doesn’t stop you? If so that is truly messed up. A mothers first instinct is to protect her children, and doing that comes before any other consideration, certainly she should be putting the welfare of her child before the relationship she has with you. This is what it means to be a good mother.

You asked me what gave me the idea that all pedophilia is abuse, and you pointed out that not all of it was forced… re-read my last message. I said that children were unable to give meaningful consent to adults because they rely on adults for their daily needs. The adult has FAR too much power over the child for it to be workable or healthy. The very BEST case scenario for pedophilia is the adult taking advantage and the child only realizes that later on.

What I am saying is not arbitrary, and believe me I do not write off any sexual expression lightly being a member of a misunderstood minority myself, but I have yet to see a single argument for pedophilia which holds any water whatsoever or addresses this enormous power differential. I support all expressions of sexuality between consenting adults (LGBT, Polyamory and Consanguinamory), but I cannot support pedophilia.

You know what else really gets my goat… when society mistakes people like me for people like you and thinks we’re the same thing. I am working towards freedom for my people, and one of the biggest objections we face is people thinking that incest is a code word for molesting kids, or that legalizing incest would make it easier for people to have inappropriate relationships with children. Why the hell do you think my community now uses the word ‘consanguinamory’ to describe incest relationships between consenting adults. It’s because we’re sick of being mistaken for people who abuse children.

You said you hoped I would be open minded… I am very open minded, but I cannot accept what you’re saying as true as it makes no sense. I believe that you believe you’re speaking the truth, because you’ve convinced yourself that what you’re doing is okay, perhaps it helps you to sleep at night to remain in self-induced delusion. But it is your neice who will pay the price of your delusion, and I am aghast that your sister allows it.

Since I sent this, I have not heard one word from him. I wonder why this might be? He knows I am right. Hopefully the jolt to his conscience will be sufficient for him to at least re-examine what he is doing to his niece.

Notice the sly attempt to compare what he is up to with our CONSENSUAL ADULT relationships. Notice how he has completely deluded himself and normalized what should never be accepted. This is a very common tactic with pedos, they know that they will never be accepted, and so they try to say that ‘we’re no different from x, y and z’. They tried it before with the gay rights movement, that’s why NAMBLA exists. And yes, they are and they will try to piggyback onto our movement by calling themselves ‘incestuous’. It is imperative that we do not allow such trickery to slip by unchallenged. Each time this is attempted, we must call them out on it, and point out that it is very clear that incest between consenting adults, and child molestation are two very different things and should be treated very differently. The former should not concern the law at all, the latter should carry a custodial sentence.

When the general public thinks about incest, they often imagine a scenario much like the one that this pedophile described, where an innocent child is being subjected to things that she or he should never have to see or do. I need the public to understand WE ARE A SEPARATE MINORITY, WE ARE NOT LIKE THIS GUY. WE STAND AGAINST CHILD ABUSE.

However, what we stand for is a clear distinction between right and wrong. We ONLY support rights for CONSENTING ADULTS. I want this to be made crystal clear, so that there can be no misunderstanding. We cannot win this war of words with our opponents without getting this simple message across to the world.

As much as this exchange of e-mails was deeply unpleasant, at least it’s given me the chance to show you all how these people think, and what we can do to combat them.

They lost their baby, now they’re on trial…

Well guys, today we’re going to examine yet another case of incestophobic abuse by the state. I’m sorry to say it makes a depressing read, but it’s necessary that the world becomes aware of exactly what the state is doing to our people when we’re caught, for something we shouldn’t even need to hide in the first place.

The article begins with this:

Investigators in Laurens County were looking into an alleged sexual abuse incident when they learned that Katlyn Edwards had given birth to a child after being impregnated by her biological father, James Travis Brown, the Laurens County Sheriff’s Office said in a statement.

Note that there was the AUTOMATIC assumption that there was sexual abuse taking place… just because they’re father and daughter. Such assumptions, although predictable, annoy me.

“During the investigation, we learned (Edwards and Brown) had been in a consensual relationship when she became pregnant,” the sheriff’s office said.

According to the sheriff’s office, both Edwards and Brown claimed their relationship was “consensual and mutual” during investigators’ interviews.

“Investigators also found other evidence to support their claim that the relationship was consensual,” the sheriff’s office said.

So, they both say it’s consensual, and the investigators found evidence to support that. So I think it’s safe to say that they were in a happy relationship. So… why is police time even being wasted by this? Don’t they have actual criminals to catch? Surely the resources spent on persecuting this innocent couple could have been better spent tracking down and arresting a child molester.

Edwards was arrested on Monday without incident and taken to the Laurens County detention center. She is not currently listed as being jailed.

Brown is incarcerated in another county on unrelated charges and will be transferred to Laurens County to face incest charges, the sheriff’s office said.

If she committed a crime in another county then certainly she should do her time for that crime, but charing her for having a consensual relationship with her dad is absurd.

The child died at a medical facility in Charleston, South Carolina, according to the statement.

This is certainly sad news for any couple… but to be persecuted as they are being alongside such a tremendous personal loss is about as cold as you can get. Imagine how this couple must be feeling, they’ve lost their baby and now they’re going to lose their freedom. Furthermore, if she is incarcerated in another county, at what point after the birth was this baby removed from it’s mother? Was the baby healthy at the time it was taken away? Notice that the article does begin to address these questions.

“It is beyond my comprehension how this could take place between a father and daughter,” Laurens County Sheriff Don Reynolds said. “At this time, I can’t confirm the baby died from complications related to incest, however we wonder if that’s the case. We are working with medical professionals and the Solicitors Office regarding that aspect of the investigation and will update everyone if there are any additional charges.”

It happens because when relatives both lack Westermarck Effect there is a possibility that mutual attraction can occur. It happened to me, and it continues to happen secretly to a rather large number of people. Parent/offspring attraction is nothing unusual, in fact, it’s quite normal for us. It may be beyond the imagination of this Sheriff, but it isn’t beyond everyones imagination.

They’re looking into the possibility that the death may be as a result of incest. Fair enough, but I’d bet that it will turn out to be sudden infant death syndrome, a rare but fatal condition which affects a small number of babies within their first few months of life for absolutely no reason. Again, most babies born of related parents are perfectly healthy, so while it’s good to see that they’re not jumping the gun, I’d be quite interested to know the cause of death.

In reality, whatever caused this little one to die, even if it IS defects due to incest, it still does not excuse the appalling behaviour of law enforcement! Putting this couple through a criminal trial for what ought not be a crime, all while they’re still grieving the loss of their baby! How disgusting and fucked up is that? If there is any crime here, it’s that committed by the state! Damn I feel angry reading about this!

You see, THIS is the kind of abuse our people are having to put up with, just because of what we are. It’s inexcusable, it’s intolerable, and it should not be permitted to continue. So while people in power sit around a table and talk about human rights, even lecturing entire countries on human rights… while all the time they violate our rights in their own back yards. Wouldn’t the West have much more leverage on the human rights of sexual minorities if it practiced what it preached, and gave equality to ALL consenting adults, and not just regular monogamous heterosexuals and homosexuals? It’s almost as if they’re saying ‘Yes, we believe in equality, but not you gross fuckers’. Really, equality is only equality if it is applied to ALL consenting adults, whether everyone approves or not.

Of course, if I hear any updates on this terrible situation, I’ll let you all know.

Ignoramuses on Tumblr

Oh Dear, we’ve got some hate going on at Keiths Tumblr, nothing we haven’t seen before mind you, but it will allow us to once more view the ridiculous mindset of our opposition.

It begins with this question:

Maybe you should give advice on how a person that hasnt had sex could actually find a boyfriend or girlfriend, instead of saying it’s not weird to ask your own parents that you want to lose your virginity to them. How are these people ever going to have normal relationships after that!?

This anonymous poster has absolutely no idea what he (or she) is talking about. First of all, consanguinamory IS normal. One in 50 people are consang, so it’s not exactly unusual. I think that the intent was to ask how anyone is supposed to have a regular relationship after having a consang one with ones parents. To answer this question we must take into consideration that persons orientation, where they lie on the scale. A full consang has no interest in sex with unrelated regulars, but a bisang could. It wouldn’t matter if they lost their virginity to a family member or not, their orientation would be the same regardless.

Just think about it, if somebody loses their virginity to a same sex partner, how are they ever going to have heterosexual relationships after? Answer: Only if they’re bisexual. Same argument, different orientation. Yes, THAT is how stupid the original question actually is, but lets explore some other brain breaking idiotic comments in there.

Huh I wonder why? It couldn’t be the fact that it’s absolutely disgusting and immoral.

If this person finds incest disgusting, fine, don’t do it…. but don’t expect every other person on the planet to feel the same disgust. Furthermore, consenting adults having a sexual relationship is in no way immoral, regardless of whether they’re related or not. Immoral acts are acts which cause tangeable harm, clearly no harm is being done when consenting adults have sex, therefore there is nothing immoral about it.

Preaching incest totally counts as harm to minors, right?

and the reply:

Yup!! Especially if he’s pardoning a parent raping their children in the name of “free love.” Or someone harming their younger siblings.

Nobody was advocating or even mentioned child rape. What part of consenting adults is so difficult for these people to grasp? Incest DOES NOT mean raping kiddies, it means a romantic and sexual relationship between ADULT persons who are close relatives. Way to go for how bigots make these ridiculous comments without bothering to actually read Keiths blog. Had they read it, they’d have understood what type of incest we’re advocating!

While this heated exchange of words isn’t nearly so nasty as some I’ve seen, it does go to show how these people think. They think that they’re right, they think that they’re doing the world a service by being a hater, but they’re so wrong.

If you feel disheartened by seeing this kind of thing, don’t let it get to you, these people don’t know what they’re talking about, they’re just repeating the same age old tired shit that ‘everyone knows’. We’ve got ways to go to combat incestophobia, but views as stupid as these cannot survive in the long term as information gets out.

A new work of fiction

Well guys, on a very positive note, I have been contacted by an author who has written a story about half-siblings who originally thought that they were cousins and then found out otherwise. The story is set in an American state where incest is punishable by life imprisonment even if the participants are consenting adults.

If you’re interested in supporting this author and reading her work, CLICK HERE to purchase 🙂 If you do read, don’t forget to leave a review for her on the above link!

The Consanguinamory Reproduction Study… The results are in!

Okay folks, as some of you likely remember I was running a study on consang reproduction, to determine the risks.

There were 133 respondents, 18 of which had to be eliminated from the study either because they had no children, or gave logically impossible answers. This leaves us with a sample size of 115 couples who between them had 226 children (136 Girls, 88 Boys, 1 Intersex and 1 Gender Undisclosed)

Sixteen of the couples who responded were themselves the result of a pregnancy between first degree relatives, and three were the result of cousin pregnancies.

22 Children were born prematurely, 18 were overdue, two pregnancies were aborted, and the remaining 184 were born ontime.

21 of the children suffered from an illness, 14 of which the participant specified as a ‘common illness’ These included allergies, asthma, autism. Four of the children suffered from illness or disability which the participant is certain is down to inbreeding, and five are unsure what caused the illness as it is uncommon.

16 children had learning disabilities (16/226 x100 = 7.1%), 9 of which were also specified as children suffering from an illness.

The total number of children with ANY problem at all is 21 + (16-9) = 28

This gives brings us to the overall illness and disability rate of : 28/226 x 100 = 12.4%

However, if we were to exclude children suffering from common illnesses (eg. asthma) and learning disabilities (eg. ADHD) which occur frequently in the children of regular couples, we get (28-14)/226 x 100 = 6.2%

If we include only the four children who we are absolutely certain suffered illness as a direct result of their parentage, we get 4/226 x 100 = 1.8%

Confounding factors:

  1. Is my sample size too small to take a true reading? It could be possible, 115 couples is not a very large sample, however, I believe it is sufficient to take a snapshot.

  2. It is possible that parents of children who are disabled due to inbreeding have not found their way to the community, and therefore my study? If so, this could be a biased sample.

  3. Is it possible that some mothers felt uncomfortable seeking adequate medical care during their pregnancy in case the parentage of the unborn child was discovered? This could have lead to more health problems for the mothers and children in question.
  4. Is it possible that mothers who are pregnant via consanguinamory take better care of themselves throughout their pregnancy to try to mitigate the believed extra risk associated? In my study: a. Only 16 (7.1%) did not eat a balanced and varied diet, b. 13 were exposed to a toxin of some kind during pregnancy (only 8 (8/226 x 100 = 3.5%) of which were tobacco, alcohol or recreational drugs, the remainder were environmental toxins and medications). This would indicate an overall careful attitude during the pregnancies.

2nd Generation inbreeding calculations

42 children were born from parents who were themselves conceived by related parents.

Of these children:

8 had a common illness

4 had learning disabilities, bringing the total to 12.

12/42 x 100 = 28.6%

The risk more than doubles for the second generation. This proves the theory correct that the risk increases with each subsequent generation of inbreeding. While nature allows for consang relationships and children to be born from them, it does not allow for many subsequent generations to practice inbreeding. It goes a way towards explaining the gene pool of Ancient Egypt, where up to one in 5 pregnancies was conceived via consanguinamory, and yet there was no mass disability… there was enough outbreeding to balance that and thus maintain the health of the gene pool. However the royal dynasties of that empire had to marry within the family for religious and political reasons, leading to inbreeding depression, disability and eventual sterility in the offspring.

Bottom line

The overall risk of a child being unhealthy in the first generation is 12.4%, in real terms a one in 8 chance. This may sound like terrible odds, but when you consider that this figure includes common chronic conditions which are also becoming increasingly prevant in the regular population also, and that when these conditions are excluded, and we include only uncommon problems (which are more likely to be expressed with two copies of the same defective gene), and problems we know for sure are a direct result of consang reproduction (only 1.8%), the ADDED risk is a mere 6.2%. Odds are strongly in your favour that nothing is going to go wrong as a direct result of consanguinamory, providing that your parents are not related.

The news is however not so great for those who are involved and wish to have a family whose parents were also close relatives. The risk is more than double for your prospective children than it was for you as generation one. Based on this I would advise against second generation inbreeding. That said, you can still have children, just not in the way you may have imagined. You have options such as using a sperm bank or surrogate. This way you get the best of both worlds, a safer way to have children.

I can’t tell anyone what to do, but what I can do is bring you the facts and trust that you now have the knowledge to do what is right for your circumstances. There has been very little research into the field of consang reproduction, professionals won’t touch the subject with a bargepole, and considering the illegality of incest in many places and the sensitivity of the subject, people will only come forward anonymously. What I have provided here is not absolute nor irrefutable,  it is simply one body of evidence which needs to be joined with several more bodies of evidence in the future. The figures I calculated may be approximate only due to the relatively small sample size, but they do give us the general idea.

As a final note, I would like to thank the couples who took part in the survey, you’ve done a great service to other consangs who are sitting there debating whether or not to have a child. The information you provided could help those couples to make the right choice for them.