Arguments that aren’t even arguments

This very issue has cropped up repeatedly these last few days when I have observed on debates about consanguinamory on facebook and elsewhere. I thought it was about time I wrote about it because it’s something that’s quite common in peoples lines of reasoning, if I can call it that.

Some people, despite appearing on the surface to be apparently of average intelligence, consistently not knowing the difference between making an argument, and stating their opinion, or even making a statement. Okay, let’s take a look at, in the most basic form, what apparently passes for an argument for the status quo these days.


This is one very common ‘argument’ against consanguinamory, and yet it isn’t actually an argument at all, it’s an OPINION. Ok, time for a little thought experiment: Let’s imagine that instead of consanguinamory they were talking about ham and pineapple pizza, or neon blue hair dye. Would that be a valid basis for banning those two things? Obviously not, with regards to other peoples choices we tend to mind our own business and allow others to attend to theirs. Why should it be any different when it comes to peoples love and sex lives? If ‘It’s gross’ is an opinion when we’re talking about food and hair color, then surely it’s STILL an opinion when we’re talking about relationships and sexuality.

There is only ONE instance in which this ‘argument’ is in any way valid, and that is when it comes to the life of the one making the statement. If somebody doesn’t like to eat a certain pizza, then that’s a valid reason not to personally eat it. If somebody doesn’t like blue hair dye, again, it’s a valid reason for said person not to use it. And so, logic follows: If somebody doesn’t like the idea of consanguine relationships, then it’s a valid reason for that person not to date within their family. However, preventing others from doing so when they don’t share that aversion is like preventing pizza eating and blue hair dying just because one doesn’t like it. It’s arbitary, authoritarian and irrational. When you really strip the argument down to the bare bones you’ll find absolutely nothing of substance there.

‘But they’re RELATED’ or ‘because it’s INCEST’

And? Again, this isn’t an argument, it’s a statement. Expanded, it would read ‘related couples shouldn’t be allowed to be together because they’re related’. Now how silly does that sound, really? Let’s use the analogies in the previous examples to expand a little further on this. Imagine somebody saying ‘blue hair dye shouldn’t be allowed because it’s blue hair dye’ or ‘Pizza shouldn’t be allowed because it’s pizza’. This is the exact same argument applied again to hair dye and food. Hopefully by now, any idiot could see the logical flaw. Where exactly is the argument here? There just isn’t one!

‘People just don’t do that sort of thing’

While it’s an inaccurate statement, it’s another non-argument for logical reasons. Expanded, this means ‘It should be banned because people don’t do it’. Okay, let me see if I am understanding this correctly: we need a law in place to ban something that apparently nobody does? Such a law would be irrelevant, redundant and unnecessary from it’s inception were the statement actually true.

So let’s take another look from another angle, maybe they mean it less literally, like ‘not many people want to do it therefore it should be banned’ Logically, the number of people engaging in an activity should have no bearing on the legality of that activity.

Let’s go back to the pizza. If NOBODY ate pizza then making it illegal would be a stupid waste of time and energy, and if only a few people eat pizza, you’re trampling over the rights of those who eat it by making it illegal.

Same applies to consanguinamory: If there were no people in consanguine relationships, then the ban on incest would be irrelevant, and since a few people are, such laws are trampling over our fundamental rights as human beings. It’s nothing more than tyranny of the majority ‘just because’ and we deserve better than that.


This is another opinion masquerading as a fact. In it’s expanded form, it says ‘related couples shouldn’t be allowed to be together because it’s perverted’, and yet they never explain exactly what they mean by ‘perverted’. Usually they mean ‘it’s gross’ which of course was the very first one on my list of non-arguments. However, it could also be taken to mean ‘unusual’ or ‘not the norm’ which is more akin to point three on the list. Something being (apparently) rare is not a cause for banning it. In either instance the ‘pervert’ label is irrelevant to whether or not the ban on incest should be there or not. Perversion is in the eye of the beholder anyway, it’s a word that means different things to different people.


Some people just don’t do any actual thinking before applying their fingers to the keyboard, if they did, such glaringly obvious flaws in their ‘reasoning’, if we can be so generous as to call it that, would be immediately apparent to them.

On another level this also serves to remind us of just how weak some of the ‘arguments’ used by our opponents actually are. This is very important, for it tells us that this battle for our rights is not only winnable, but that our win is inevitable in the long run.


A letter from Mumbai

Well, I had a nice little gem in my inbox today from a young man in Mumbai who went from conservative to supportive just by reading Keith’s Blog. It proves how minds and hearts can be changed by the power of words.  Presumably he is a visitor of mine too since he contacted me. Anyway, here is his message:

A petition to France for FULL equality

Well folks, today it seems that I am the bearer of some good news for us. I have recieved an e-mail from our friend Richard from Australia. He has created a petition to France on our behalf. Now, as we already know, incest between consenting adults is not illegal in France, this petition however, if signed, could make France think about giving us full equal rights, including marriage rights. As Richard has correctly stated in his comments:

Liberté, égalité, fraternité  is French for “liberty, equality, fraternity”, and  the national motto of France, but where is the ‘égalité’  if CIAO ( Consensual Adult Incest Oriented )  people cannot marry and other sexual minorities can?

I would urge everyone who reads this to sign the petition, I already did.

Also I’d like to publicly thank Richard for doing this for us, he has previously submitted Petitions to Scotland to legalize incest, but so far to no avail. Lets hope we have better luck in France. If enough of us sign and we are successful, that would make France the first country to grant our people FULL EQUALITY. Let’s make it happen and


An Open Letter to Daniel and Santana Mexican, from Cristina Shy

Dear Daniel and Santana,

My friend, colleague, and fellow activist Cristina Shy has written a letter here for you. We’re aware of the outrageous prosecution you’re facing and Cristina may be able to help you. I would strongly advise you to get in touch with her as and when you see this message from her:

Dear Daniel and Santana,

I am a Legal Secretary and advocate for the rights of consenting adults to share love, sex, residence and marriage with any and all consenting adults.

I have been following your story on the internet closely and I think it is absolutely awful that the Federal government is prosecuting you both. You are both consenting adults and the government has absolutely no business in your bedroom.

Due to the oppressive laws that you both are forced to live and love under, I feel deeply for you and your situation.

If you are reading this, please know that you have a friend, ally, and advocate in me. I want to help you in any way I can. I would welcome contact and would do whatever I could to help you.

Please check out my website

If you want to contact me completely confidentially, please email me at

Kind Regards to you both, Cristina Shy

As for me, I will continue to follow your case closely and will help in any capacity I am able to from my location in the UK.

I know things are difficult for you right now, but please at least realize that there is support for you out there, and that you did nothing wrong and that this prosecution is outrageous. It’s the state that is in the wrong and that is what our community is hoping to fix in the long term.


Jane Doe


This short film was brought to my attention this evening whilst I explored the facebook page Supporting Incestuous Relationships, if you haven’t checked it out yet I recommend you doing so because it shows much promise and there is good content already, I was not aware of this page myself until today.

The film depicts two brothers who fall in love with each other, but when their parents find out about their relationship it all ends very tragically. I will warn you it’s a real tear jerker, but it does show very powerfully the impact that incestophobia can have on peoples lives.

Also, I have added this video to ‘Media’ in case you would like to watch it again sometime.

Just who was the victim here?

Another day, another story of consenting adults being unfairly prosecuted simply for having a sexual relationship. Todays sorry story comes from Eagle Butte, where a man and woman, aged 43 and 25 respectively, have been charged with incest. You can go read the whole thing if you want to, it isn’t long. However, here are the most important parts:

The maximum penalty upon conviction is up to 5 years in custody and/or a $250,000 fine, 3 years of supervised release, and $100 to the Federal Crime Victims Fund.  Restitution may also be ordered.

The Indictment alleges that on November 20, 2016, Daniel Mexican and Santana Mexican knowingly engaged in consensual sex with each other, when they are within the degrees of consanguinity which would render a marriage void.

The first thing you notice here is that they were CONSENTING ADULTS. This was not a case of rape or child molestation, both were well above the age of consent, knew exactly what they were doing and consented to it. Nobody was in any way being harmed by their relationship, so THERE IS NO VICTIM HERE.

But wait, take that back, there IS a victim, the couple themselves. They’re the victims of state harrassment and persecution using the law as a weapon. The a look at the penalties: 5 years in jail, $250,000 fine…etc…. for consensual sex with another adult. How can this be in any way justified? It cannot be. As I have said several times here on my blog, other peoples disgust with incest is not a legitimate reason to impose criminal penalties on consenting adults. The only thing I find disgusting is this incestophobic prosecution!

Peoples lives are being torn apart, and for what? To stop others from doing something others find gross. When you stop to think about it, nobody actually gains anything from these prosecutions. It’s a waste of time and money, and it’s bigotted, irrational and hateful. The law has no business governing the sex lives of consenting adults, and even more than that, it has no business telling consenting adults that they cannot marry either.

Happy 1st Birthday Consanguinamory Blog! Now here is the surprise as promised :)

Okay, I’m a few hours early, but hardly able to contain my excitement I am posting now and not at midnight. The 4th January is a big milestone, it celebrates one year of this blog being on the Internet. So rather than just post about how great it is to be a well established and prominent blogger in the consanguinamory community, I thought I’d provide something for everyone to enjoy and make good use of.

As we all know, a lot of people are mistrustful of social media, and often with good reason. Facebook doesn’t like anonymous users, heck it even deactivated my (fake) account a while back and I had to sign up again! Facebook also isn’t quite so freedom of speech oriented, and it may indeed pry. These are all legitimate reasons why many members of our community have felt uncomfortable signing up and contributing to the movement using social media in a meaningful way. If this applies to you, I don’t blame you. I know that before he temporarily left us due to other committments, The Final Manifesto was looking for a Facebook alternative.

A few weeks ago I stumbled upon a possible solution for us, and investigated further. A new social media site, founded by people who believe in freedom of speech and privacy was created a few months ago. It’s called Minds, and it’s a smaller but rapidly growing social media network. Basically, you can say whatever you want to there, provided that you don’t use the site for illegal purposes (for instance selling drugs and the like). Minds also allows you to be an anonymous user, which means you only need a functioning e-mail address to sign up and it doesn’t ask you for your name, you merely choose a username and a password. I will caution you though that although it’s possible to be anonymous to other users, since we don’t know where the servers are, it would be prudent to use TOR Browser to disguise your IP address and keep yourself doubly safe.

I have been setting up some basics there for us, which so far is My own channel (everyone gets one by signing up), my blog (which I intend to use as a second copy of this blog, in terms of making duplicate postings there of everything I post on this website), and two groups. Consanguinamory Discussion Group is open to the public, it’s purpose is intended for education and outreach, and with it being so public, I would advise new members to speak about consanguinamory in more general terms rather than give personal experiences, so much same as we do in Keiths ISFME group over at Facebook. Friends of Lily on the other hand is a closed group, and you need to subscribe to my channel so I can send you an invitation, this group is just for us and it’s meant to be a social media equivalent of the Kindred Spirits forum where we can discuss our stuff privately.

All this said, I hope to see as many of you as possible on Minds, and like I said, if you want to be added to Friends of Lily, subscribe to my channel and I’ll add you.

Join Minds by clicking this link, and I will earn extra points for being your referrer, this means that those points can be spent boosting my blog material over there and helping to find others, so it’s win-win for everyone!

Happy New Year

I’d like to wish everyone a Happy New Year and hope you all had a good Christmas holiday. I’d like to think that 2017 will be the start of a new chapter for our community, one of growth and prosperity. I don’t speak here of economics, but of seeking out lost ones and bringing them home to our community where they belong, and I speak of growing in our understanding of ourselves and our self-accetance, and our prosperity in being able to convey our truths to the world. We’ve a long way to go to be sure, and the only way to get there is to put one foot ahead of the other. Our journey is not an easy one, but it is a worthwhile one, and we will succeed no matter how long it takes or how bleak it may sometimes seem. We may seem vulnerable, but we’re stronger united than we could imagine, and with our community spirit we are unbreakable.

On the 4th Jan, my blog turns one year old, and I plan to celebrate this milestone in style. I won’t tell you yet what’s going to happen, but it’s something that is going to be very useful for everyone. I can’t tell you more than that otherwise I will ruin the nice surprise! So keep your eyes open and visit on the 4th.