Double-Love Explained

After some online conversations with friends who have had their offline friends and family not understand their relationships, I felt the need to write this article for the benefit of exsanguinamorous people who are just trying to understand how and why these relationships occur, and in what ways they differ from exsanguine ones. Double-love is experienced in both GSA and non-GSA consanguinamory, and it appears to be something unique to us.

Most people believe that it is impossible to feel both family love and lovers love towards the same person simultaneously, that the two roles will necessarily conflict and cause any type of incestuous relationship to be inherently unhealthy. This is compounded by further misunderstandings that makes people believe that there is something inherently wrong with even being attracted to a family member in the first place, because ‘normal’ people experience the Westermarck effect, and thus such attractions for them are impossible.

Speaking from personal experience, and from speaking to so many others over the years, I can confidently say that being able to experience both types of love for that one special person, and the roles not conflicting, is the one thing that sets our people apart as unique. You’re probably wondering how the roles don’t conflict… what if say, a brother and sister were together, and say a problem crops up for them… for instance lets say that the company she works for goes bump and she now has to find a new job. She goes home to her brother/partner and tells him about it, they’re obviously both upset but now his wages have to carry them through until she finds alternative employment. She is relying on him as a PARTNER, you’d say… but he is also her brother, and as a brother he would also want to look after her as FAMILY too, in fact if she was a single woman and there was no consanguinamory involved he might have temporarily supported her anyway. So here the two roles are in complete agreement, he supports her as BOTH brother and partner with the same actions.

So what about feelings… do they conflict at all? I would argue not. The complete blending of both types of love leads to a very deep and intense bond, if you aren’t wired up this way it might be hard to understand or imagine, a bit like how a straight person cannot truly know what it is like to be gay despite the best of their imagination. This truly spectacular blend of the two loves is what we call ‘double-love’ and it basically means that the partners become EVERYTHING to each other, we give all that we are and get the same in return. People often throw around the claim that their partner is their ‘other half’… but with double-love that has additional depth and meaning… our family partners literally are our other halves, in every way possible including down to our genes.

Once this intensity and depth of double-love has been experienced, it can be difficult or near on impossible for some of us to consider going back to ‘normal’ single-love relationships. I’ve tried it and felt it about as fulfilling as a round of toast on an empty stomach. There is nothing that compares or even comes close. To many of us, ‘normal’ feels really empty without the family aspect.

Consanguinamory is our normal, it is beautiful, intense, passionate and deep… our double-love is limitless and powerful. It is time for us to be heard and understood on an intellectual level at least, even though exsanguinamorous people cannot feel what we feel. It’s time for the discrimination and the misunderstandings between our communities to stop, time for change.

A letter from Downunder – The guy who sent the petition to Scotland

Today I received this letter in my inbox:

Dear Jane,
I have  just read your  ‘Open letter to  legislators’  and ‘About me’  and it felt like you are practically speaking  ‘my heart and mind.’
Your mother sounds  just like my wife; (who may have BPD)  Hard to live with yet hard to escape.Super charming when she wants to be, but controlling and verbally and physically abusive when it suits her.
 My daughter doesn’t seem to love me as much as  you love your father. She never phones us, hardly emails,  but I thought we were very  close.  We  would chat easilly for hours, only  stopping  because the wife’s interruptions. That was  until I fell in love with her about two years ago during our trip to the  UK. She is 30 now.  What is it about  the English Spring? She found out, (a careless word) rejected me and backed away, keeping her distance. (She  had moved out of home three years earlier, but now that I was in love, I could really feel her absence and the silent treatment she was  giving me.Now  we are almost totally  estranged.(She still visits us dutifully fortnightly but only for  Sunday meal.)  She has had a few boyfriends but already in her 30s, seems uninterested  in marriage. Sometimes my ego makes me suspect she has a little  feeling left over  for me also, which, as most people do with Oedipal  impulses, she represses them.

I am happy that you and  your father found happiness  together. I am  a tad envious. You write so well, clearly and honestly, I almost wish you were my daughter instead of my daughter who seems so cruel to me in a way ( is it to be kind?).
But could be the environment that makes her and me   so… mad. Fifteen years of celibacy. Perhaps that an  make someone go around the twist? Yet I am not the one sending people to jail for consensual adult incest. Who  is mad?
I have been trying to write a book about incest, (as therapy for me, to kill time and to ‘intellectualise’ my mental problem.
But I got side-tracked when I read about a case in Scotland, where a father was jailed for consensual adult incest. ( Eleanor Jackson,  was taken from her biological father Frank Humphreys, twice: once as an infant, then again as an adult). This was a gross injustice to my mind, especially when  ACI is not illegal  in so many European and other countries. Modern places like new Jersey. Israel. Japan. France. China. “Why is  Scotland still in the Dark Ages?” I thought.
Last year I sent a petition to the Scottish parliament about the unfair Scottish law on incest. The original petition  was about 10 pages long, but they cut it down to 3-4 pages, eviscerating it I thought.   On Australia Dad  they rejected it out of hand with no debate.  I think they  would have rejected it even if I had had time  to gather  a million signatures.
They were just so closed minded. I had  hoped that people would have become more educated and broadminded since the UK legalised homosexuality and gay marriage.  Perhaps many have, just not the politicians.
One possibility I suppose is for UK people in  consanguineous relationships to apply for refugee status in France, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Spain  Portugal  or Italy. The law in the UK does breach  ACI people’s human rights, and persecutes them, and destroys their lives. But then, we are not all ‘Lord Byrons’ with a healthy trust fund, and can’t afford to  become refugees.
At least in  Belgium people can publicly register their ACI relationship.
 
One psychiatrist recently said he thought I had PTSD,  probably as a result of living in an on-going abusive relationship.
It is  not a very good excuse for a bad letter, but the only one I can think of just now.
I am sorry  this letter may not be as well written  as it should be, but I hope that  you  can see that it is meant to show  you that there is at least one  more  out here who really cares and feels the kind of things you  feel, and thinks the same way as you do and supports you.
Wishing  you the  best always
 
With deep compassion and co feeling
Keep being strong!
Richard [Surname removed for privacy]
Sydney NSW
Thank you for that, Richard, It’s nice to know that people are appreciating the work I’m putting in and understand the problems we face so well.
I’m sorry to hear that your love for your daughter went unrequited, sometimes it goes like that for consanguinamorous people as much as it does for ‘normal’ people. I’m sure if she ever changes her mind she would let you know. The important thing for now is not to try again or it may push her further away. A lot of people are very uncomfortable with the idea of incest (both because they just aren’t wired up that way and because of the way society brainwashes people to hate it), and so she probably freaked out a fair bit. The best you can do really do is try to be close to her in other ways, such as phoning her more often and just talking, perhaps asking if she needs help with anything, maybe go for a meal or spend time doing something that you both enjoy. This probably won’t lead to a consanguinamorous relationship, and don’t expect it to… the goal is a better and closer family relationship. Trust me, if consanguinamory happens, it does so very unexpectedly and spontaneously.
Sorry to hear about your wifes mental problems, that can be a tough one to live with. My mother was never diagnosed because she wouldn’t go and see any mental health professional, she was convinced that psychiatrists wanted everyone locked up just so that they could experiment on them (I know, crazy), but judging by her behavior and how she was, mine most likely had Narcissistic Personality Disorder or Psychopathy. But then I am just doing amateur armchair psychiatry based on reading articles and stuff and then weighing up checklists against the behavior. I’m certainly no expert in mental health. Growing up around all the crazy wasn’t easy, and nor was it easy for my dad.
I’m glad to hear you’re writing a book, I’m sure you’ll get it done eventually, I think many people need to have more information out there about consensual adult incest, and so the more the better. That’s the reason I do this blog actually, to help educate people and get them to realize that we’re normal people, not horrible scary perverts. I get letters like yours sometimes and it’s aways nice to know that my message is helping and affirming people.
So it was YOU who sent the petition to Scotland? Wow. I live in England but really, I can’t thank you enough for trying for us, these laws seriously need reforming. As for them trimming it down… probably afraid of the inevitable consequence of reading the whole document, that is, that they would have to legalize consensual adult incest. It’s true that you’d think that the legalization and subsequent equal marriage rights for homosexuals would have made people realize that sometimes the law gets it badly wrong. Yet I doubt that many people are ready to accept incest yet. I think that this is because it is so taboo that even talking about it is taboo, and so because nothing gets discussed, ignorance and prejudice persist… and you’re right, this does breach our human rights.
The tide will turn my friend, and the movement is now underway, slowly but surely, person by person we will change hearts and minds. A trickle becomes a stream, and a stream becomes a torrent as it tears down old barriers and prejudices, sweeping the way clean for a new dawn of understanding. The opening of minds is exponential, and one day anti-incest prejudice (new word possibility – consanguinamorophobia?) will be just as unacceptable and as ugly as homophobia is now in the mind of the public.
Again, thank you for getting in touch with me. You may e-mail me again any time if there is anything further you wish to discuss 🙂

Kindred Spirits Forum

Anyone want to join a discussion forum about consanguinamory that doesn’t have those idiot porn ads and isn’t full of fetishists? Where you can discuss any topic related to consanguinamory with others on the forum and expect serious replies? Look no further than KINDRED SPIRITS.

In order to fully participate, you must do the following:

  1. Join the forum
  2. Make an introductory post to the ‘introductions’ forum – This should include your age and situation.
  3. Wait for one of the admin team to upgrade your account, which will give you access to the forums which are hidden from the public

Take a look and join, you will be glad you did 🙂

Whether to have kids, and how

Most couples of any persuasion want to have children at some point, and that isn’t a problem for the majority of the population, in fact some manage to procreate more prolifically than they would like. That said, there are special concerns for consanguinamorous couples, namely the increased risks of congenital disorders. Other factors also come into play such as the age and general health of the woman, any disorders which run in the family, the lifestyle of the parents (for example, do they drink and smoke or not, do they eat a healthy diet…etc), all of which may impact on the health of any child produced.

My aim here is not write this article through rose tinted glasses, if I did, I would be doing my readers a disservice. It is also not intended as advice, you’re an adult and perfectly capable of making up your own mind about these issues. All I am going to give you are the facts, and of course, some food for thought.

The Statistics on the risks of birth defects

Unrelated couple – 2%

Third degree relatives (first cousins) – 3-4%

Second Degree relatives (uncle/neice and aunt/nephew) – about 6% risk, about the same as for a woman in her forties.

First Degree relatives (bro/sis, dad/daughter, mum/son) – about 9% risk – This is in dispute as no solid data has been found to corroborate this. However, this is the most likely statistic because it is the same for DOUBLE FIRST COUSINS (where the parents of one cousin are brother and sister of the parents of the other cousin) who share the same proportion of common genes as brother and sister.

These risks are for ANY KIND of defect, they do not say what sort of defect or how severe they may be. The defect could be a severe and lifelong disability, or it could be something so minor as to not be unusual in the general population, perhaps being more prone to allergies like hayfever or having a food intolerance.

What the statistics also do not tell you is that the chances of passing along homozygous beneficial genes must necessarily also enhanced by those same percentages. For instance if the normal copy of a gene gives somebody average running speed, but the ‘mutant’ one makes somebody able to run faster, two copies of that same gene could make an Olympic athlete in the making!

Other genetic factors

Of course, the above is based on the average HEALTHY incestuous couple whose ‘mutant genes’ both beneficial and destructive are recessive and hidden. However, for some couples, they may already present with homozygous copies of a genetic nasty, and if their partner is also a carrier (more likely if they are closely related), then the chances of any offspring having homozygous copies is greatly increased to around 50%.

This can and does happen with unrelated couples too, for instance if one has Huntington’s disease, and the partner has it in their family too, then the children will have a 50% chance of having the disease. So the problem is not unique to incest couples. It is also worth noting that if the partners are unrelated, even with these massive risks, their reproduction is still legal.

Moral and ethical considerations

If you and your partner are both healthy, then while increased risks exist for you, it is overwhelmingly probable that you can have a healthy baby. It depends on whether the risks are too large for you or not. For many consanguinamorous couples related to first or second degree, they are, but certainly not for everyone. I’ve spoken online to people who have had healthy normal children by their immediate family members.  For first cousins, the increased risk is only slightly above that of the general population, and the world over there are many many cousin couples who have healthy and normal babies.

It is also worth thinking about the societal context into which the child is born and the attitudes people hold towards such children. If you live in a country where first and second degree incest is illegal, and you have a child together, then the child becomes living biological proof of your relationship. Of course, you can always declare ‘unknown father’ on the birth certificate, and claim you had a drunken one night stand… some couples have to do this to hide their relationship from the state. This gets you off the hook for the time being, but what will you tell the child when he or she is older? Is it morally okay to keep their true parentage from them? If you tell them the truth, is it okay to ask them to bear your secret? I know it shouldn’t be like this, but these are the sorts of things you really need to think about long and hard before deciding to bring a child born of incest into a world that doesn’t even think he or she should exist. It’s a tough one, but it does need to be thought about. I cannot advise you or tell you what to do, but I can give you these things to think about.

If you really want your own biological baby, it is worth traveling to a country where incest is legal to get genetic counseling before considering to have a baby, that way you will better know what your risks are of something going wrong, and you will be able to assess more accurately for your particular genetics whether this is the right choice for you or not.

For those who choose to have children but not with a biological relative

There are a few good options available here, so let’s explore them:

Sperm Banks – Of course, this is simple enough. Any woman can use a sperm bank, and she can choose from a wide range of sperm donors. This method is perhaps the simplest because it doesn’t involve anyone else except peripherally. Usually the donor doesn’t know who gets his sperm donations or even necessarily how many biological children he fathers in this way. The child however may want to track down his or her biological father, and it is worth asking the sperm bank if this will be possible for the child at a later time. Not all sperm donor fathers would want their numerous biological children knocking his door, but some may not be against it. It’s something to think about.

Surrogacy – For this method you would require an unrelated woman to agree to carry a baby for you which would be genetically half hers, and half the mans. This is normally accomplished by IVF. She would need to be provided for financially for the course of her pregnancy and after the birth while she is recovering. Of course, after the birth, she will hand the child over to you. This is a real gift for somebody to give and such women deserve the highest of respect. It is worth noting that sometimes a surrogate mother develops a real attachment to the child, which is normal and natural, and she may find it difficult to part with that child. You would both need to discuss with her whether or not you would want her to be a part of the childs life or not and what the three of you are comfortable with.

Adoption – There are plenty of children who for whatever reason find themselves without parents or other adults to look after them. Some of them are abandoned babies, others are children which social services have had to remove from dangerous and dysfunctional homes, others were born to unfit parents who perhaps had drug addictions or something like that. If the child is a baby, then there is perhaps less problems with the adoption than if the child is older and has come from an abusive home. If the latter is case the reasons that the child went into care in the first place needs to be addressed along with the emotional and behavioral consequences of any abuse or neglect that child has suffered in their former home. This is a great way to give a needy child a home, and fulfill your own needs to have a child.

The above methods of becoming parents obviously negate any possible negative biological consequences, however there are still some considerations. How do you feel about each of the above options? Which, if any feels right for you? Will you tell your child how he or she was conceived or came into your care? If so, will you tell him or her about your incestuous relationship? As with biological children, there are ethical considerations either way of both hiding or revealing the whole truth, especially in countries where incest is against the law. It is something to think about at least.

For those who decide not to have children

Some people feel that all of the above is just too much, and they decide not to have either biological kids or go through surrogacy or adoption routes. For those people they simply choose not to have any. That’s okay too. For those couples it is worth thinking about permanent methods of contraception such as vasectomy or getting tubes tied. That is the most effective long term method of contraception. It is worth noting though that these operations can self-reverse after many years, so it is worth periodically getting checked out to ensure continued infertility. Of course, if you later change your mind, a second operation can of course reverse it.

If you’re unsure about whether or not you will want biological children, it might be worth using long term contraceptives such as the pill which is easy to stop taking if you change your mind.

CONCLUSION

Whichever course of action you choose, there are going to be pros and cons. Only you can know for sure what is right for you as a couple and your life in general. Don’t let other peoples bigotry and ignorance become the deciding factor for you, go with the facts that apply to you and make up your own mind either way. Nobody should have the right to tell you what to do, and it is outrageous that so many countries have laws that do just that. You have a right to a family life if you choose that, and like I said, it is probably best if you want to start a family to move to a country where that isn’t illegal.

Yet another anti-incest article conflating incest with child abuse

Here, you will find an article entitled ‘Having sex with your daughter is just Disgusting‘. The title itself pretty much sets the tone for the whole piece because it is really all based on the authors prejudices, backed up later on by the debunked ‘mutant babies’ argument.

It opens with this:

Drama unfolded last week in Thika where a mother of 11 accused her husband of keeping her away from their six-month old last born child, having sex with their 18-year-old daughter.

But these so far are just allegations. The father and daughter have since come out and refuted the claims.

Firstly, the woman concerned is 18, she is a young adult able to make up her own mind about who she wants to have sexual relations with. Also, of course they are going to deny it… why would they admit to something publicly when it is likely to land them in jail because of the bigotry and prejudice of the system?

Incest is however a real problem in Kenya. Who can forget the big eyes of Simon Kituyi Wakape when he was arraigned in a Webuye court last October to answer to charges of incest. DNA analysis showed that there was a 99.9 per cent chance that he was the father of his daughter’s child. Talk of having a child for a grandchild!

Separate case, it doesn’t state the daughters age, and of course this is significant. If she was underage then clearly he should be charged with child rape rather than incest, but if she was a consenting adult then there should be no charges to answer.

As to the fact that he impregnated his daughter, assuming that it was consensual adult sex then the state really shouldn’t be involved. The ability to choose who to procreate with is a human right, and it’s something that the law should not interfere with on that basis alone.

Not long before Wakape, a man from Kimumu in Eldoret pleaded guilty to defiling and impregnating his 13-year-old daughter

The issue is yet again not their relation, it is the fact that she was an underage girl. Thirteen is not old enough to consent with anyone, including her father. So this creep should have the book thrown at him for child rape.

Incest is just outrageous, even animals seem to shun it.

Not always, a small minority within all animals have tendencies towards incestuous sex. If it is not a major problem for the gene pools of the animals, why should it be a major problem for human beings?

How, for heaven’s sake, could one even contemplate the repugnant thought of having sex with her father or his mother? Or getting it on with his sister?!

The same way that anyone considers having sex with anyone. Some people find family members attractive, and there is nothing wrong with that.

don’t know about you, but the very thought of this is sickening. There are a few things in this world that are a no-no, and incest is one of them.

If it sickens and disgusts you then this form of sexuality is not for you. Just because you find something gross doesn’t mean that everyone else feels the same way. In fact there is a sizeable minority who disagree with you, and many of us have had experience in these kind of relationships and find them to be the most beautiful and complete expressions of love. Just because you cannot get your head around it doesn’t make it wrong, it just makes it different, that’s all.

Given that sex leads to reproduction, the big question is, how do the offspring of incestuous relationships fare in terms of health and quality of life?

Sex CAN lead to reproduction, but these days it doesn’t have to. There are plenty of effective methods of contraception available to couples that are fertile. That said, this argument doesn’t even apply to homosexual incest, or to incest where the woman is post menopausal. In fact, the majority of incestuous couples choose not to take the risk and have children.

The article then goes on to cite a study:

Results from a study of Czechoslovakian children whose fathers were first degree relatives, show the true effects of first degree incest. Less than 50 per cent of the children from incestuous unions were completely healthy. Forty-two per cent had severe birth defects or suffered early death. Another 11 per cent were mildly mentally impaired.

The researchers concluded that the odds of a baby born out of incest dying early, having severe birth defects or mental deficiency is almost 50 per cent.

The control group in the study were offspring of the same mothers, but whose fathers were not blood relatives of the mothers. Results showed that only seven per cent of these children were born with birth defects.

I would argue that the increased risks of incest would have been compounded by environmental factors as well. The fact that the children born of unrelated parents had a 7% risk of being born with problems is remarkably high. The usual figure quoted for unrelated parents is around 2% chance that something would go wrong. This alone tells me that there is something wrong with the sample taken. Perhaps the prenatal care wasn’t up to scratch, maybe the mothers were malnourished or were smokers and drinkers, maybe there was a lot of pollution in the environment causing an increased risk for all children whether born of incest or not.

Furthermore, research has been done that states that the risks are nowhere near this. The risks for cousins is around 3%, for 2nd degree relatives 6-7% and for first degree relatives is about 9%. Therefore the study above you spoke of must have confounding environmental factors. I am not saying that increased risks don’t exist, only that they are frequently grossly exaggerated.

A sexual relationship between relatives concentrates the gene pool for defects and hereditary diseases.

And it would also concentrate the gene pool for any beneficial genes that those family members might have as well. You do realize that good genes are inherited as well… right?

Apart from the medical conditions that offspring may suffer, Dr Ong’ech points out that the psychological trauma that follows will affect the individuals as well as their families.

The psychological trauma of being inbred is the fault of society for stigmatizing such children. If we as a society remove the stigma, and the hate and the fear, then we remove the psychological trauma. It is a better path to take than to continue down the road of repression and criminalizing people just for making unusual relationship choices.

The bottom line is that the stakes are so high whenever there is incest. I don’t think there is any culture in the world that allows a father sleep with his daughter. It’s just disgusting!

As I have explained, the stakes are NOT as high as you believe them to be. Furthermore, it shows your lack of knowledge on the subject that you don’t think there is anywhere in the world where father/daughter incest is legal. How about The Netherlands, Spain, France, some US states (though only one or two), Japan… of course all those countries must have some serious problems and their societies must be caving in… right? Actually no. There is no problem with incest in these places and it hasn’t caused any societal problems.

For the love of God, get your facts straight before you start posting articles full of misinformation and bigotry. Incest isn’t disgusting to everyone, if it were, blogs like mine wouldn’t be here.

Coming Out, the good and the bad

For obvious reasons, coming out to friends and family as consanguinamorous  is not the same as coming out as gay. For a start, incest is illegal in the majority of countries, and in those where it is legal, there is still a lot of prejudice to overcome even though not from the law. For us, the risks of coming out at far far greater than they are for the average homosexual or lesbian, at least that is the case in the western world. For this reason, for most if not all consanguinamorous couples, the relationship must be kept top secret. Yet somehow despite all that, there are a few brave souls amongst us who have had the courage to tell a trusted other about this part of their lives.

The risks

Of course if somebody makes an error of judgment and tells the wrong person, it could lead to arrest and prosecution in most places, in which case jail time is likely, as is being added to the sex offenders register. Even if that person doesn’t inform the police directly, him or her confiding this knowledge to another less understanding person could lead to that person making such a report.

Of course, in cases where the police are not informed, or even in countries where incest is legal, it could still lead to horrible social repercussions. Friends and family may suddenly disown you, you could potentially lose your job and your home. You might even find a lynch mob after you or find your property vandalized or worse.

It is also quite possible that those you tell will try to split you up, try to get you sectioned by a psychiatrist, tell you that you’re sick and perverted and disgusting… etc. Do you want to possibly invite that sort of abuse into your life?

The benefits

Of course, if you choose to come out to the right person or people, then there are additional people you can be yourselves around without having to hide. Those understanding souls can be there for you and will fully accept your relationship even if they cannot completely relate to all aspects of it. It takes a lot of courage for somebody to come out, and if you are one of those people, please choose your friend wisely.

Coming out in each scenario

Of course, different life circumstances might mean that the person you’re coming out to will react differently.

Coming out to a spouse – Here, it makes a bloody big difference whether the consanguinamory was in the distant past or if it is an ongoing part of your life. If the latter you will probably have been cheating, and that is wrong whether the person you cheated with is related to you or not. That scenario is going to go down like a lead balloon I’m afraid. If your relationship is an open one then perhaps the sleeping with somebody else won’t be so much of a problem, so much as your spouses reaction to who you’ve been sleeping with.

If however it was a case of it all being ancient history, perhaps teenage experimentation or even a relationship that ended well before you met your current spouse, it may or may not be an issue. I can understand wanting to be totally honest with your partner, but sometimes it might just be best to keep certain things private; why upset him or her with your ancient history? In this scenario it is probably best to join a support forum like Kindred Spirits and vent your thoughts and feelings in there, where you know that everyone will be supportive and understand.

Also bear in mind that if you choose to tell your spouse, and later your relationship comes to an end, that if he or she becomes particularly vindictive then the knowledge could be used as a weapon against you, even if only psychologically.

Coming out to parents – This is a big one, especially for sibling couples. The reaction can be anything from supportive to calling the cops, or indeed anything in between. Obviously you know your parents general attitudes towards life in general, and perhaps even about sexuality in general. If they’re accepting of gay people and alternative lifestyles and open minded in general it might be worth considering telling them. Of course, on the other hand if they are very conservative or religious I would really think twice about telling them anything. This applies to telling anyone, not just parents!

Most people want their parents to love and accept them for who they are, and to be proud of them. Depending on their general attitudes, this may or may not still be possible after finding out about your relationship. I’ve even heard of some parents completely disowning their consanguinamorous children, which is very sad indeed but inevitable for some because of the amount of prejudice. Their reaction might also differ depending on who you’re with and their reaction to that person and their perceptions. They may be less tolerant towards a intergenerational relationship than to a monogenerational one.

Parents may also feel that it is somehow ‘their fault’ in some way,and believe that they didn’t do enough to instill moral values or something like that. Of course, that isn’t the case because consanguinamory is an orientation for many of us in non-GSA situations, and it’s an argument that barely applies to GSA since the parents were likely out of the picture anyway while you were both growing up in separate homes. Just like it isn’t the parents fault if somebody turns out to be gay, it isn’t the parents fault that somebody turns out consanguinamorous… it’s something that just happens.

Coming out to siblings – Again, the risks depend on their attitudes in general just as with parents, but also on who you’re with. Some siblings may be absolutely fine if you’re with your cousin, or your other sibling… but it may be another matter entirely if you’re with one of your parents or another older relative, as they might assume that you’re being abused or taken advantage of even though that’s far from being the case.

Of course, you can read your situation and the attitudes of your family members pretty well, so you will know the right timing, and the right way to come out if you choose to do that. Of course, don’t come out to religious conservative types.

Coming out to friends – I would only recommend coming out to very close friends, not the mates you go to work with and have a pint with on a Friday night after work. It’s really down to how much you trust that friend and how open minded they are. If somebody is a very close friend, and is very liberal minded, or perhaps a gay friend, then you’re likely on solid ground… that said, even some liberal gays can be against incest, but maybe their perception will be open to change after knowing your situation.

 

Being caught/outed

Sometimes, people have no choice but come clean and spill the beans. Perhaps some spiteful person has discovered your relationship and is trying to ruin your life from a distance by sending malicious letters to your friends, family and workplace. Perhaps you were caught in the act. Perhaps people are growing suspicious of your secrecy and have put  two and two together. All of those scenarios have happened to people, and continue to happen.

Of course, malicious mail and peoples interpretations can be plausibly denied, especially since most people find incest so outrageous and they already have a mental image of you as ‘normal’ so they will be quite ready for you to deny it, and accept your denial whether you’re lying or not. The more suspicious however might still suspect, but will obviously not report you because they’d fear been seen as foolish and vindictive if they turned out to be wrong.

Denying it when you’ve been caught red handed, that’s not possible to deny. Now is the time for damage control. I would recommend the three of you sitting down and for you two to be prepared to answer some tough questions. In these cases, be honest, and stress to the unfortunate person who discovered you that you’re in love, that you didn’t plan for it to happen, it just did…. etc. Then ask them what they plan on doing. Hopefully they will keep your secret, if not you must plan for the worst, or perhaps even go on the run towards a country where it is not illegal and where nobody knows you.

CONCLUSION

I would seriously recommend telling nobody because there are so much risks involved in doing so, but if you must come out, or if you are outed then it is a case of trying to minimize the risks as much as humanly possible. You know the people you’re thinking of coming out to better than anyone, so you know their likely reaction far better than I do… but please be cautious. If it’s a case of just needing to talk, then it’s much safer to join a forum like Kindred Spirits.

Setting the bar, why the ‘slippery slope’ fallacy is a nonsense

Back in the 1960s, many people used to claim that ‘if we allow homosexuality, then it will leave the floodgates open for other perversions to become legal‘. The argument follows that this tidal wave of legalization will eventually lead to child molestation, bestiality, and necrophilia becoming legal. The assumption was that once the process begins it will be some kind of decent into sexual anarchy with no moral boundaries.

Of course, this is a logical fallacy, because each form of sexuality should be considered in isolation and upon it’s own merits and drawbacks. The question most people fear is ‘where do we set the bar?’ What exactly determines whether a sexual practice ought be legal or prohibited?

I would argue that the following should not play a part in determining the legality f any given sexual practice:

  • Disgust…. you can find just about anyone that finds something disgusting, even pretty ordinary and vanilla actions such as oral sex. Obviously somebody else being disgusted by it is not sufficient grounds for banning something.
  • Unnaturalness… what is natural and unnatural is a subjective thing, being in a same sex relationship is very natural to gay people, and very unnatural to people who are straight, and vice versa. Again, no grounds for a ban.
  • Other people don’t like it/ it upsets and disturbs people… that’s the same argument as personal disgust multiplied by the number of people who share the disgust. The same invalid argument multiplied many times is still an invalid argument.
  • It’s against my religion/it’s a sin… in this world not everyone shares the same religious beliefs, and some have no belief system at all. Therefore to impose the sexual morality of one religious group upon all people is clearly wrong and a violation of their personal rights. It’s not a valid argument.
  • It’s unhealthy… many things in the world are unhealthy but perfectly legal, like fast food, tobacco and alcohol, but we aren’t looking to ban these things. Even if a sexual practice does turn out to be unhealthy that is no good reason to ban it, people are capable of making informed choices about their sex lives. Unhealthiness is not a valid reason for something to be banned.
  • Not many people would want to do it… well there are lots of people who don’t want to go skydiving but that doesn’t mean it should be banned.

So what SHOULD come into play when considering legality:

  • Whether it necessarily causes serious harm in and of itself
  • Whether it infringes upon the rights of others
  • The voice of the community who practice that which is currently illegal
  • Whether the criminalization of a sexual practice causes more harm than it prevents

When we take all of the above into consideration, it is pretty clear where the bar should be set:

Any form of sex between any consenting adults should be automatically legal by definition. Any practice that does not fall under that banner should be automatically illegal by definition.

This means that the following should be legalized immediately and given their full rights, including the right to marry:

Consanguinamory and Polyamory

The following should always remain illegal:

Necrophilia, Pedophilia and Bestiality – all three fail because corpses, children and animals cannot consent, they do not fall within the definition of consenting adults.

It really is very simple, and I really don’t know why so many people in the world can’t get their head around it. The slippery slope argument is clearly ridiculous when you look at it this way, the bar must be set somewhere, and this is where we set the bar. There is no valid reason whatsoever to prevent consenting adults from engaging in whatever relationships they choose. There is no fear of slipping into anarchy and immorality, because the bar has been set in a sensible place where it respects everyones rights and freedoms while prohibiting actions that cause serious harm. Now all we need to do is to convince the world that this is the correct place to set the bar.

With regards to the consanguinamorous community, setting the bar here would truly liberate our people and mean that we don’t have to hide our true nature any more. We have much to offer to the world as normal functional members of society. People will find that we’re not the horrid scary perverts that the media depict us as, but normal men and women going about our lives.

An open letter to the public

Dear Sir/Madam,

You may be reading this for a number of reasons, perhaps you have discovered that your country is debating whether or not incest ought be legalized, perhaps you have discovered consanguinamory within your family, or perhaps you are consanguinamorous yourself and want to see what one of us bloggers has to say to the public on the matter. Whatever your reason, you’re in the right place, and I thank you in advance for taking the time to read this letter.

Firstly, I would like to acknowledge the fact that most people find the idea of having sexual contact with a family member disgusting. For some of those people, just the thought of it is repulsive, and for others, they assume that it’s gross because ‘everyone knows that’. This is a huge hurdle for our community to surmount, because such feelings automatically make people assume the very worst about us. I hope by the end of this letter, you will feel less disgusted and more sympathetic to our plight.

The very first thing I will stress here, right from the outset, is that incest DOES NOT mean child abuse or pedophilia. Pedophilia is truly disgusting, abhorrent and extremely harmful to the children. It is a known fact that childhood sexual abuse can both physically and mentally harm a person for life. There is no excuse for it and no valid reason for any adult to inflict this suffering on any child. Those who do it to one of their own children is even more repugnant, because a parent is somebody that you rely on to protect you from just such abuses. That isn’t incest… that’s childhood sexual abuse, plain and simple.

Consensual adult incest, consanguinamory, is sexual relationships between adult family members. This kind of incest is the most beautiful, deep and intense form of love imaginable. For us, the love goes beyond the usual lovers bond you find with ‘normal’ relationships, and beyond the family bond experienced by ‘normal’ family members. Our love is a merger between these two types of love and it goes well beyond both of them. After such an experience, it becomes almost impossible for many of us to have ‘normal’ relationships and feel satisfied by them again, because they lack the same depth and intensity. I’ve experienced this personally, so I know exactly what I am talking about.

People tend to worry about consent issues and power differentials, especially with regards to parent/offspring relationships, but there is no real need to worry. If somebody can consent to fight for their country, drink alcohol, drive a car, and have an orgy with a group of total strangers, then he or she is certainly old enough to decide whether to have a sexual relationship with a parent. By the time a young adult has reached this stage, the task of active parenting is done, that is raising a person from babyhood to the stage where they are self-sufficient, independent and positive contributing members of society. By this point, parents tend to be more like friends and do not have control of their adult children’s lives. While some small power differential may still exist, there are other relationships which have far larger power imbalances, rich/poor and employer/employee are two examples, neither of which are a legal matter. A power differential in any relationship does not necessarily make that relationship harmful or abusive, only if and when the one holding more power uses that power over the other in an abusive way does it become harmful. Abuse of any kind should always be illegal, but never the relationships just in case abuse might occur.

Consider a hypothetical situation; for instance a brother and sister who get into a relationship and for a couple of years they have a fine and happy relationship. Later the brother becomes jealous and possessive, believing that she is cheating with some guy from work, and starts hitting her. How can she go to the police for protection when she would be charged with incest and likely put in jail? She can’t. Far from preventing abuse in incestuous relationships, the current laws actually help such abuse to remain hidden by criminalizing both parties and not just the abuser. This alone should be enough to convince most people that criminalizing consensual adult incest can cause more harm.

Such abuse is very rare in consanguinamory anyway because the overwhelming double-love makes it so much less likely. I’ve actually yet to see a single example of an abusive situation between adult family members, and I have been around incest discussion groups on and off for fourteen years. That alone tells me how rare this happens. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, because I’m sure that it does just as with any other kind of relationship, only that it is sufficiently rare that I’ve yet to see a single case.

I understand also that many people reading this will be worried about the potential for ‘mutant babies’ being born of incest couples. As I have stated elsewhere on this site, there are other high risk groups of people who may procreate legally, and some even have assistance in doing so! Just think of all those women in their forties having children using IVF, their age alone makes the pregnancies high risk. Think of people with congenital disabilities who have children, or people who take recreational drugs, or who drink heavily and are smokers…etc. We don’t stop these people from having children based upon the impact their health, age or lifestyle choices might have on an unborn child. If we were to do so it would be eugenics. For this reason, using the ‘mutant babies’ argument is really ridiculous and it is not a valid reason for keeping incest illegal. Not all such couples can reproduce, such as homosexual incest and those where the woman is post menopausal, and of those that are able to, many will opt not to, there are plenty of effective contraceptives available these days to prevent unwanted or unplanned pregnancies.

What I also want the general public to understand is thatconsanguinamory is actually a sexual orientation for some of us. This tends to be the case more for people who experience incest where they grew up alongside, or were brought up by their partner, and for those of us who this applies to there is far less of a Westermarck effect than there is for the general population. People who are in relationships via Genetic Sexual Attraction, who were separated when one or both were small children who find each other as adults and then enter a relationship because of the intense attraction usually DO exhibit the Westermarck effect towards other family members from whom they were not separated. For GSA people, they do not experience consanguinamory as an orientation, but as an experience because of the separation and reunion. This highlights the differences between incest and GSA, but there are also similarities. Furthermore, it also demonstrates that there may becompeting factors in the nature/nurture debate that are worthy of consideration.

Whatever your circumstances or feelings, I hope that reading this letter, and hopefully more of my website, has helped you to understand the consanguinamorous community a little better. Only by education can we hope to be understood and accepted for what we are by the mainstream.

Yours faithfully,

Jane Doe

A letter of support

Today I received this letter in my inbox:

Dear,

thank you so much for writing the site consanguinamory. While i am reading your about me page i just felt i am reading my thoughts and feelings from others view.

I am in early thirties. I lost my mother in my teenage. but you know she is the one i love most. She is the one i dreamed of every moment. So i got feelings on her. Not just on her very soon i found love between the consenting adults is beautiful. With whom we admire, with whom we feel the warmth and care and equality in thoughts and actions they inspires us most.

Most of the times its our parents, We are allowed to share everything with our parents but not love and sex. Its too stupid.Whats wrong if we hug our beloved parent and whats wrong if we stare into their beautiful eyes for hours, whats wrong we lost ourselves in them. I am fighting with these feelings and thoughts for almost 15 years and now i decided that they are the real calling. Yes I decided to accept them. not just mother and son, bu that kind of beautiful love exists between a father and daughter and a brother and sister too.

I am  here to support the true love the very special and most intimate love between the family members.

I am trying to sensitize people and educate them in my surroundings.I am happy to connect with you via mails.

Well thank you for sending me this e-mail, I am glad that you’ve enjoyed reading my website and feel affirmed by it’s message.

You are right of course that the laws against incest are completely ridiculous and really ought be repealed, and from our perspective the sooner the better. I am tackling those prejudices and misconceptions that are keeping this form of sexuality illegal, and I am helping spread the word with my youtube channel and my podcast too. I am sorry to hear that your mother is no longer with you, and I wonder if you ever had the chance to tell her how you really felt?

Of course there is nothing wrong with parent/offspring love. that’s just a complete misconception by the public because they are ignorant about how such relationships actually work. There is nothing comparable to the family/lovers double-love that exists in consanguinamory.

I am glad to hear from you and wish you all the best 🙂

An open letter to Legislators

Dear Sir/Madam,

If you are reading this letter, the chances are that the government in your country is having a debate on whether or not incest ought be legal or illegal. Even if that is not currently the case, I would urge you to read on anyway in order to hear I have to say on the matter on behalf of the consanguinamorous community, because such debates are necessary and inevitable given enough time.

As you are aware, most people have a natural aversion to the idea of having a sexual relationship with a close family member, although obviously this is not the case for everybody. You may yourself feel such an aversion, but ask yourself this: do such feelings of disgust provide sufficient basis for the legality or illegality of any given course of action? I would argue not. In fact, personal disgust was one factor that kept homosexual sex illegal for as long as it was. Not many people would currently argue that homosexuality should be illegal based upon their disgust with the act itself, as such a weak argument is in fact no argument at all.

There are of course other objections to incestuous relationships which I am going to cover in this letter. The next of which is the ‘mutant babies’ argument, which states that the prohibition against incest is necessary to prevent the births of horribly deformed children. On the surface this may look reasonable to many people, after all, increased risks exist for people who are first, second and to a lesser extent third degree relatives.

I would urge you to look at this another way. Increased risks of congenital defects exist for other groups of people as well; such as women over the age of forty, people who themselves have an inheritable genetic defect, people who are frequent users of recreational drugs, people suffering from alcoholism, and people who are taking medications that may impede the normal development of an unborn child. This is by no means an exhaustive list, but all of the above mentioned persons may have children legally, and some of those people have risks vastly greater than the average healthy incestuous couple. If we are going to argue that incest should be illegal in order to prevent defective offspring from being born, we should also be arguing that the above persons be prevented from breeding also. Of course, this sounds a whole lot like eugenics, which of course, it is. On this basis, I would say that this is insufficient grounds to ban incest.

Furthermore, not every incestuous couple can procreate, and of those who can, large numbers will be unwilling to do so. For a start, those in homosexual incestuous relationships are unable to do so with each other for obvious reasons. The same of course goes for those in which the woman involved is post-menopausal. Those who choose not to have children have a large array of very effective contraceptives available from their doctors, and some may even choose to opt for vasectomy or sterilization as a more permanent solution. For those who do want children, they too can choose not to inbreed by using other methods; sperm banks, surrogacy and adoption are just three valid methods that can be used. Of course a small number will either actively choose to have biological children of their own, or fall pregnant accidentally. Yet of this tiny number of children that will be born to incestuous couples, only a small fraction of those will have any noticeable defect. The numbers are sufficiently small as to put no discernible strain upon the public health system, and so even on these grounds it makes no logical sense to ban these relationships.

Another main concern that will effect your decision is the preservation of the traditional family unit. Many people wrongly believe that any incest must necessarily destroy traditional family roles and thus destroy the family bond. This is a misperception of what is actually happening. Most incestuous couples speak of a very powerful and deep’double-love’ bond, which is a merger between family love and romantic love, where the romantic love is an add-on to the family bond. Far from destroying the family bond, it does the reverse by actually strengthening it.

Also, there are plenty of other actions which are perfectly legal which do threaten family cohesion, divorce, cheating, being heavily in debt, excessive drinking and gambling, not spending enough time at home with the family… etc. Nobody would argue to outlaw the above, so why use possible destabilization of the family unit as a reason to keep incest illegal? Clearly this is not a valid argument.

Another point I would like to make is that consensual adult incest is a victimless crime. What is the point on wasting state resources persecuting a minority group that doesn’t harm anyone? Those resources would be far better spent apprehending serious criminals and predatory pedophiles.

On the subject of predatory pedophiles, our community finds them absolutely abhorrent just as everyone else does. Legalizing incest between consenting adults will not lead to making life easier for these monsters, because existing laws are already in place that criminalize any sexual contact between adults and minors. If anything the laws against child molesters and rapists do not go far enough, and their sentences ought to be harsher in many countries than they actually are. Our community is an ally for you in the fight against childhood sexual abuse.

For those reading this who are worried about consent issues regarding parent/adult offspring incest, it is worth remembering that young adults have minds of their own and yes, they are perfectly able to consent. If somebody is old enough to fight a war, to drive a car, to vote in an election, to purchase and consume intoxicating liqueur, to have an orgy with a group of people that he or she just met… then surely they are old enough to decide whether or not to have sex with a parent. If a person is old enough to consent to sex, then they are old enough to consent to it with any other adult. That’s just basic logic.

Some people may worry that incest is the cause or the symptom of mental problems. It follows the line of reasoning that ‘nobody in their right mind would want to do that’. I would say that just because you wouldn’t personally do it, does not mean that somebody else won’t want to. After having spoken to so many people online in these relationships over the years, I have yet to speak to any who appeared in any way unstable. I have however spoken to many who were feeling down and depressed, not because of their relationship, but because of having to hide their relationship from everyone around them. Being the victim of societal prejudice is no fun. Further problems are being caused to people who are wrongfully lead to believe that the intense love they feel is somehow sick and bad, they internalize societal hate and become self-hating. This is not healthy, but it is NOT the incest that causes it, it is the reaction towards these relationships that does, further compounded by fears of being discovered and thrown into jail. How is any of this right or fair? I argue most strongly that it is an injustice, it is prejudice of the worst kind, and it must stop.

It is also important to note that in very recent history, homosexuality was once classified as a mental illness. Only by education did this false perception stop. Right now the public has very little real knowledge of the consanguinamorous community and what we really are all about. The only source of information for most people, including legislators tends to be societal perception and misinformation. Obviously those sources do not portray an accurate picture of our people. My website exists to help to set the record straight, to provide a window into our lives and who we are as a distinct group of people. There are other websites out there too, which I link to in the ‘useful links’ part of the website. Some of the information on those is far more detailed and thorough than mine is. I would highly recommend that you at least take a look at those. Through reading through this information, you will have heard our side of the story too, and be better equipped to assess your vote from all angles.

So, if you are now going into a debate on this issue, please bear in mind all that I have said here. I obviously urge you to vote for the legalization of incest based upon all I have said. If you still have the time, I would ask you to browse through this website to gain a more full picture of the issues involved. Of course you should go with your own conscience, I hope that you vote on the side of freedom and enlightenment. I thank you for taking the time to read this article.

Yours faithfully,

Jane Doe