Choosing whether to act or not

This is an important subject which I partially covered already, but it is something that each of us must make up our minds about if we haven’t done so already. Some people come to the community looking for the answer to this one. It sounds like a very simple question, and at the same time it is so complex and potentially life changing.

Many people who first develop feelings towards a relative understandably have a high level ofinner conflict and confusion over their feelings. Because of societal brainwashing, it is only natural for people to question why they feel the way that they do, and whether or not there is anything actually wrong with feeling this way. If you’re at this early stage right now, then I can tell you from the outset that there is absolutely nothing wrong with having feelings for a relative. It may be unconventional, but it is not abnormal, it is not sick, and you do not need to seek help, there is nothing to feel ashamed of. So the very first thing I would call on you to do is to accept that you feel this way without judging yourself harshly, and preferably spend some time with the community to get to understand yourself a bit better, even if only by reading the blogs if you don’t fancy the idea of joining the forums. At least then you will have a pretty good idea of what these relationships are really like.

All of the above will help you on your journey of understanding, but there are some additional things you should consider:

  • Are your basic needs and wants in life the same or similar? If they are then that indicates a high degree of compatibility. Say if you both want to buy a house and concentrate on your careers then this is good. But if one of you wants that and the other would prefer to spend the money on lavish holidays abroad and expensive clothes, this may create conflict. Ultimately, are any differences in preferred lifestyle workable?
  • Do you want children? If so by what means?
  • Are you prepared for a life of secrecy and hiding the truth from the world. This is an unfortunate necessity for us in many countries due to oppressive legislation. Do you think you can both handle that?
  • Are either of you in an existing monogamous relationship right now? If so, then remember that adultery isn’t smart, and within the context of consanguinamory it could lead to criminal prosecution if the jilted spouse reports it.
  • Has your relative given any indication that they might be interested in a relationship with you? Do you know his or her attitude towards consanguinamory? If not you might want to bring it up in general terms to judge the reaction, like for instance mention a story in the news and see what he or she says about it.
  • You may at some point have to deal with haters if you aren’t able to conceal yourselves entirely, that applies even if you live in a country where it is not illegal.

Ultimately, only you can make the choice for yourself, but these are the things you might want to think about some before making that choice. It isn’t for everyone, but that’s your call.

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Trolls and Fakers, Questions and Answers.

Sadly, there have been a spate of individuals recently who have trolled people on mine and my friend Keiths friends list over at facebook. To prevent this from occurring again we have blocked those accounts AND made our friends list private to all but the top level activists in the community. It’s rather sad that we’ve had to do this, but it has been necessary to protect the privacy of the people on those lists.

Now, that’s all well and good, but this article is to tell you some information about trolls in general, it will enable you to spot them and give you some tips on how to deal with them. I’m also covering those trolls who use fake ‘incest stories’ in order to try and make us believe that they’re one of us. I have many years experience of dealing with these types within discussion forums about incest going back to ’02.

What is a troll?

A troll is an individual who disrupts the normal functioning of an online social group.

What kind of things do trolls do to cause disruption?

Many many things, and some trolls can be very creative in their methods. He or she may do any of the following:

  1. Sign up with multiple accounts and pretend to be several people
  2. Become argumentative or abusive for no good reason and very little provocation
  3. Pretend to be one of us when they are clearly not
  4. Flood a forum or social space with spam or other unwanted messages
  5. Perform witch hunts
  6. Tell outrageous lies
  7. Send unsolicited PMs or friend requests to multiple people on the basis that they might be a member of our minority.
  8. Asking multiple people for details about their personal life out of the blue, especially if this is a newcomer.

This isn’t an exclusive list by any means, but these are the most common methods employed for the purposes of disruption and causing upset and worry.

Why do people troll?

Generally, trolls are attention junkies. It doesn’t matter if the attention is positive or negative, as long as it generates a lot of conversation. Taking about the troll within earshot/eyeshot of the troll is usually considered attention as much as direct communication with him or her.

Others may revenge troll after having a heated argument and bombard a person or group with abuse.

If I encounter a troll, what should I do?

Completely ignore him or her. On facebook this is easy, you can block the person. On a forum setting do not respond to any of the trolls postings, PMs or conversations about the troll, as this will encourage further activity. Instead PM one of us admins and let us know if there is a possible problem. We will then take any appropriate action, which could include IP level banning repeat offenders to prevent them from returning to cause further disruption.

What is a faker?

Somebody who blatantly pretends to be in an incestuous relationship, but clearly isn’t.

I’ve seen somebody post some weird shit, I don’t even know if this could be real. How can I tell if something is real or fake?

Generally, the fake incest stories are easy to spot to the trained eye. If a story is fake, it will usually contain some of the following elements:

  1. Everyone has sex with everyone else.
  2. How they got together sounds like an ill thought out porn script, such as stealing underwear, spying on family members getting changed, family members walking in on each other masturbating…etc. As we all know, no relationship starts like this, incestuous or otherwise.
  3. The troll tells one person one thing and another person another thing…. or makes one post and then another which contradicts the original post. Details like the ages of the participants or who is related to who in what way may be variable.
  4. The focus is on the sex, not the relationship
  5. The person is behaving in a way which is highly abnormal, such as openly declaring that he or she is in an incest relationship on a public place like their facebook profile page while using a real sounding name, or an actual real name. We remain hidden with good reason, nobody for real would actually do this.
  6. Some aspects of the relationship sound iffy and unlikely. We know what is normal for us, if it sounds abnormal, it is probably fake, especially if there are other indications of fakery.
  7. They respond with extreme anger and abuse if anyone accuses them of being fake, and may use any sock puppets to back up their claims of being for real.

Again, these are just some of the general indicators, there are many many more variations on the theme but you get the idea. If it sounds fake to you, then it probably is.

Why would somebody fake it?

Usually this is done by people with an incest fetish who wonder what it might be like and then they let their imagination run wild. Of course, their lurid imaginings which are mostly inspired by the tirade of incest porn, are nothing like the reality of actually being in an incestuous relationship, which is why their stories are so inaccurate most of the time.

Most of the time I’d wager that they actually believe that their imagination has concocted a believable story, and that they get off by trying to fool everybody. Some of them may even be fascinated by us, but won’t admit to not having experience and so they invent some. Quite sad really.

How should I respond to a faker?

In exactly the same way as to a general troll, ignore him or her and report it to the admins. People like this get very bored if nobody is willing to talk, and thus they go elsewhere where there are richer pickings to be had. Again, if this occurs on social media, it’s best just to block the person and then you won’t have to see or worry about it any more.

Conclusion: It’s best to avoid contact with trolls and fakers, they aren’t worth your time and energy and it only encourages further trolling.

My message to any would-be trolls: Don’t bother, we’ve seen it all before and we will ban you.

An open letter to our haters

NOTE: This letter IS NOT addressed to people who believe incest should be illegal due to the increased risk of defects or the fear of child abusers. Many such people in society think these awful things and there is a letter to the general public here which directly address such reasonable concerns.  People generally believe these things because they have been conditioned to do so and haven’t had the chance to hear our side of the story.

This letter is addressed to people whose reactionary incestophobia is extreme and wholly irrational, sometimes disguised as being of a religious or scientific nature, and yet when the veil is lifted it boils down to fear of the different and the unknown. These types are usually also homophobes, transphobes and polyphobes to boot.

Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to you today to address your irrational hatred of our people, and thus your likely behaviour towards us both online and off. In your mind we are immoral, sinners, corrupted and evil, and yet did you ever stop to consider whether any of that is true? Did you ever consider our position? No? Well, keep on reading and do just that.

I’ve heard people just like you come up with all of the following at one time or another:

  • That we’re all pedophiles
  • That we all need executing
  • That we’re in league with the devil or possessed by demons
  • That we’re all retarded
  • That we should win a Darwin Award
  • That we should all be locked up in mental institutions
  • That we should be forcibly sterilized
  • That we probably fuck our pets and farm animals too
  • That we’re all ugly and resorted to incest in desperation
  • That we’re part of some government psy-op or conspiracy
  • That we’re freaks that need segregating from you normal ‘decent’ people
  • That natural disasters are our fault for angering God
  • That we pollute the gene pool simply by existing
  • That we support any and all sexual perversions because we are apparently perverts

This isn’t an exhaustive list by any means, but this is the sort of thing I’m talking about. I’ve heard EVERY SINGLE ONE of these inane comments online in response to articles about consensual incest. Such ludicrous comments are irrational in response to people who are having relationships with CONSENTING ADULTS. Think about it rationally for one second… you’re thinking these things about people who are in healthy and loving relationships, is that how a rational, reasonable and impartial human being thinks and behaves? Didn’t think so.

You cannot brush us off as mentally ill or retarded so easily either, that’s a cop out and deep down you know it. How many consanguinamorous people have you gotten to know, I mean personally? None? Oh right, okay, well there is a decent sample size from which to draw a legitimate conclusion, NOT. The chances are, you KNOW somebody who is or was involved, whether you realize it or not. If you cannot figure out who that person or people might be, then it stands to reason that consanguinamorous people are NORMAL people just like the rest of the human race.

You also cannot use your religious beliefs to disguise your incestophobia either, religious texts can be interpreted in many different ways and who is to say which interpretation is correct. Also bear in mind that not everyone will share your religious views. How many ‘Christians’ do I see online behaving like complete ass-hats when it comes to this subject? Many many people.

On another similar note, you cannot pretend that the devil is influencing us in some way. I can 100% guarantee you that this isn’t the case. If you’re worried about Satanic influences in the world, then you’re sure as hell looking in the wrong place. My blog is here to help others who are suffering as a result of incestophobia, and to educate the public about us.Last time I checked, educating people and helping people are both considered good things generally.

Furthermore you can’t invoke Darwin either, incest is legal in many countries and so far it hasn’t lead to some kind of biological disaster. The way some of you go on, you’d think that there would be an explosion of incest happening if it was made legal, but that isn’t what is observed in nations where it is already legal. Furthermore, incest occurs naturally in animal populations, but we do not see species dying out because of it. Knowing these facts, isn’t it ridiculous to be invoking Darwin in such debates?

Also, why the hell would you think we’re a psy-op? We’re NORMAL people living NORMAL lives and we DON’T work for the government. Don’t you think we would get arrested? Think about it. I’m not saying that conspiracies and psy-ops don’t happen, I believe that they do, but if you’re looking for one here, you’re in the wrong place.

Also, would you people STOP comparing us to pedophiles and people who rape animals. Have you any idea how offensive and irrational that is? What part of CONSENTING ADULTS do you people not understand? Children and animals cannot give consent, and lifelong harm is done to children who are sexually abused. On the issue of locking up child abusers, WE AGREE WITH YOU, 100%. So quit comparing us to predatory monsters and use the common sense God gave you, assuming you possess such a thing.

As you can see, your torrent of insanity is easily debunkable, sometimes it’s even as amusing as it is stupid, and at other times it is downright inflammatory and offensive. How can consenting adults be so terrible that you would want us dead? Next time you see an article about consensual incest, PLEASE THINK before you apply your fingers to the keyboard and show a little human decency and compassion. If you don’t like us, that’s fine, we don’t expect everyones approval, but advocating our murder and saying irrational and reactionary shit about us isn’t the way forwards, actually doing such things exposes you for what you are, a bigoted incestophobic hater.

Thanks for your time,

Jane Doe

Bad News on the Scottish Petition

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news here guys, but I’ve heard from Richard this week, and the SECOND Scottish petition has failed to make a difference. To add insult to injury, this time is took under one minute for them to decide to keep these discriminatory laws in place.

Here is a list of the petitions that were heard that day. Below is the youtube video of the hearing. Listen from 20:28 to 21:21.

 

You know what makes this all the worse? That there was zero discussion this time around, they simply decided to close it. I really really wish that these people would try for one minute to put themselves in the shoes of somebody who has fallen in love with a relative and who simply wants to live their life in peace. Incest may be unpopular, but that is no reason to keep it illegal. The people in that room had a fine chance to do the decent thing, but they didn’t. Shame on them!

I swear, one day a similar petition WILL be taken seriously. We are gradually gaining ground, even though at this time it doesn’t look like we are. It takes a long time to uproot such an ingrained prejudice, so we should neither be surprised nor discouraged by this kind of news. Rather we should press on with the task of changing hearts and minds one by one, because once public opinion has been changed, people like these will have to start listening and change the laws to reflect a newer and more tolerant society. We can never and must never give up on the issue of our rights, because gaining those rights will truly reflect our worth as fellow human beings. These laws are an injustice, and they must change. So hang on in there, and help the movement if you can, even if it is just sharing our blog posts around. Love will always win against hate, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, all it takes is enough time and effort.

Again, I would like to publicly thank Richard for making this second petition for us, his contribution to our movement is valuable even though it didn’t have the desired outcome on this occasion.

Sorry about the inactivity on my blog guys

I want to apologise to all of my regular readers as I have been unable to give them any fresh material in the last few days, and I just wanted to explain why. I have embarked on salvaging the works of The Final Manifesto in an ARCHIVE HERE, needless to say, this is no small task. He has not been seen or heard from since February of this year, and with so many months of silence, we must work on the assumption that he is not coming back for whatever reasons. While I have saved what I could from his blog, I will have to go to the Wayback machine to see if they have archived any of his 2014 work, as these blog posts appear to have dropped off his blog. I also need to archive the pages he has linked to at the top of his website. Once I have completed this task, my usual posting and article writing and reviewing habits will resume. Thanks to everyone for their continued patience.

When a short factual article spawns idiotic comments

Guys, I’ve got a story here for you, a real stinker of one. This time I’m not going to trash an article, but the comments made on it. The article itself is presenting factual information about a mother/daughter GSA couple who face a possible ten years each in prison for having a relationship and getting married. She had previously been married to her oldest son according to the article.

This shameless persecution by the state is lamentable enough, but on top of all that… Good Lord just look at those comments. They start irate and ‘eww that’s gross’ at first, of course my colleague, Keith over at Full Marriage Equality, responded to the comments and was immediately lambasted. with the comments in response to his clear logic becoming ever more shrill, and then they went off the deep end entirely. I joined in the discussion too of course, only to be dismissed as Keiths sock-puppet… no, I’m not kidding.

So let’s take a look at some of the weird and wonderful things these incestophobes have come out with. The first comment came from Keith, it reads:

This sounds like Genetic Sexual Attraction. They are consenting adults, correct? It doesn’t matter if other people think it is disgusting. There’s no a single good reason, equally applied under the law, as to why they should be denied their fundamental right to marry.

I have interviews scores of people in similar situations. Most are well-adjusted, productive members of society who aren’t hurting anyone.

I support the rights of all adults to marry each other.

To which one poster responded:

Keith Pullman Really? You can’t think of one single good reason? Google “autosoman recessive disorders”. It took me five seconds to come up with associated risks of incent: “Viable inbred are likely to be inflicted with physical deformities and genetically inherited diseases. Studies have confirmed an increase in several genetic disorders due to inbreeding such as blindness, hearing loss, neonatal diabetes, limb malformations, schizophrenia and several others.”

We’re not talking about some arbitrary moral argument like with gay marriage, we’re coming right down to simple Darwinism; even more than that: The very welfare of the human race. If you seriouly feel incest is a “fundamental right”, then you and people like you need to leave this earth so you don’t drag the rest of us down with your stupidity.

Now remember, it is a LESBIAN relationship, and here this moron goes invoking Darwin and the mutant babies argument.

Keith responded to his stupidity with this:

Jason Mitchell 1) How are these two women going to inbreed? We aren’t talking about inbreeding. We’re taking about marriage, 2) We let people with serious, obvious genetic diseases and women over 40 date, marry, have kids, etc. so you have to take away their rights too, under equal access. 3) There are no laws against consenting adults being together in Rhode Island, New Jersey, and many modern countries and those places haven’t collapsed. 4) Most children born to close relatives are healthy. I know some. You know some, whether you know it or not. 5) People with birth defects or disabilities are people, too. Or did you want them all sequestered in camps? 6) You’re writing as though everyone is itching to inbreed and the only thing holding them back is the law. Is there someone you want to get off your chest?

I responded to him as well with this:

[name removed] and since this is a lesbian relationship with no chance of reproduction taking place your argument against this couple collapses in on itself. But even if it was a heterosexual relationship, just because two people CAN produce a child doesn’t necessarily mean that they will, that’s what contraception is for. Furthermore, ask yourself if you would prevent two unrelated persons who both carry the same bad gene for some inheritable disease from procreation… I’d wager you would have no moral problem with that. Your views are a thinly disguised form of ‘eewww that’s gross, let’s make it against the law’. Banning other peoples relationships because you don’t like them is immoral.

Please visit my website to educate yourself:https://consanguinamory.wordpress.com

a third person also responded to the idiot:

[name removed] that would make a lot of sense if they could actually have a biological kid. Are you a product of incest? I think so.

the next comment from the idiot was long, but I’ll repost it here for giggles:

Keith Pullman First off, it doesn’t matter if they can breed or not. A law that applies to one, applies to all. So, yeah, moot point there.

Secondly, I believe in Darwinism not eugenics. Learn the difference and you’ll have the answer.

Third, much like just because something is illegal doesn’t make it wrong, something that’s legal doesn’t make it right.

For your #6: Just think of the number of things we don’t think twice about that once was considered tabboo. I go to my white-collared job without a suit, tie and hat. That was unheard of not too long ago. Times change things and we are having enough difficulties in this world without idiots like you saying it’s okay for someone to bang their sister.

Lastly, if you don’t believe inbreeding leads to crap geans, you must also believe the earth is flat. Again, it’s not a morals thing. It’s…I’m sorry, it’s just stupid to think anyone actually believes it’s perfectly healthy to have parents with the same genes. If you’re not a troll, you’re just a total moron that needs to kill themselves. Sorry to be blunt, there’s no other way to say it.

Dear me there is so much crap in that post it should win a Darwin Award by itself. Apart from misspelling two easy words ‘taboo’ and ‘genes’ he also compares belief that inbreeding won’t always result in disaster with believing at the Earth is flat. Say what?

He then does a second post:

Keith Pullman Oh, BTW, I know Jane Dow and [name removed] are also you. I’m not an idiot.

Not an idiot? I’d most strongly beg to differ. How anyone couldn’t tell that me and Keith were different people is beyond me. *scans above posts* nope, can’t see any idiocy there [/sarcasm] *eyeroll*

Keith replied:

[name removed] I have not written anything under either of those names. You’re wishing death on people, upset that consenting adults love each other and that someone speaks uomformtheir rights. I’ll let others read for themselves and see who is more reasonable.

One person’s disgust is no reason to deny other people their rights. The Supreme Court has ruled repeatedly consenting adults have a fundamental right to marry and to private sex.

Good points of course, as one would expect. Now it’s rant time from him:

Keith Pullman Oh, I know it’s a harsh thing to say, brutal in fact. It’s something I never tell anyone and, frankly, it came from anger but I’m not going to take it back. I’m not “wishing death” on anyone as much as I’m stating this world would be a far better place if people who don’t consider genetic degeneration a big deal commit suicide.

You know, it goes to the whole “too stupid to live” category of Darwinism.

As for allowing people to think for themselves, sure. Why not! I have science and basic logic on my side. You, feelings… That’s it. Feelings. Feelings don’t mean jack, especially in a subject as serious as this. Your logic is a woman should be able to have sex with a dog if he humps her leg…that’s the dog’s way of giving consent.

My whole attitude doesn’t come from disgust or some sense of morality. I find homosexuality gross and I couldn’t care less if two gay dudes want to get married. It’s a free country. And I generally agree that government should stay out of the bedroom and less laws the better. I’m big on personal liberty. #GaryJohnson2016

The rest comes from the fact that stupidity makes me angry. The greater the stupidity, the angrier I become and I didn’t know it was possible but I think you managed to surpass flatearthers and truthers…possibly combined.

It’s basic bloody science. This isn’t even an issue for opinion. Yes, people are grossed out by this and, you know why? It’s a natural impulse/reaction ingrained in our DNA. Even before the time of gympanzees, in pretty much every animal group, for the sake of their species, one would seek out beyond their own blood line to produce prosperous offspring. Animals, crazy enough, instinctively know. So, one way to look at it, creatures fresh out of the primordial soup are smarter than you.

Like I said, personal liberty is a big deal for me but I make an exception in this case; if two people are dumb enough to want to enter a sexual relationship with someone in their own gene pool -especially immediately family-, it’s paramount that they are stopped.

FOR THE SAKE OF ALL HUMANITY, IT’S A LINE THAT MUST NEVER BE BROKEN.

If you still don’t understand that, well, refer back to my previous request in my previous reply.

And seriously, of course that’s you! I’m not new at this. You shared multiple links on your FB page with Jane Dow’s profile pic. They’re obviously shill account you created to give support for your asinine argument. The fact they were posted very shortly after your initial comment makes it just that much more obvious.

Basically he says he is big on personal liberty, but in reality he is a fascist because he ‘makes an exception’ in our case. His reasoning that all animals avoid incest is also FALSE. A minority of most animal species mate within the family, and this doesn’t seem to lead to any catastrophic collapse of their gene pool.

Again he insists that we are the same person because we use the same profile pic… *ROFLMAO* My God that’s a good one, it’s the Friends of Lily symbol that we all use to show our dedication to the cause, many consang people use it. This symbol is to us what the pride flag is to the LGBT community.

I added my voice to the comments again:

[name removed] LMAO you serious? Firstly I never even heard of [name removed] before today, secondly, Keith Pullman was an activist for equality for years before I added my voice to the cause. Read some of his blog… and then read some of mine… our writing styles aren’t anything alike. It would be obvious to anyone who took a look at them that we are NOT the same person.

It’s so easy for people like you to just condemn, but you don’t know anything about consanguinamorous people. People don’t exactly choose who they fall in love with, it’s something that just happens and these attractions often catch people by surprise. There is nothing at all wrong with two consenting adults falling in love and having a relationship. How does it suddenly become disgusting just because the people involved are closely related? It doesn’t,

Not everyone experiences Westermarck effect, with Genetic Sexual Attraction (GSA) it never gets the chance to develop because of the separation, people who have GSA usually experience Westermarck effect for their adoptive families. With non-GSA consensual incest, the Westermarck effect just doesn’t develop, and this means that we can find close relatives attractive.

Again this only explains how these attractions occur, to help your understanding some. It’s absolutely okay that you find it gross, quite frankly I couldn’t give a shit…. but I do give a shit when people want to continue to deny us our full equal rights. Why should our people have to put up with discrimination and hate all because of who we love? We’re probably the most misunderstood minority group on the planet, and those of us who are activists are trying to help set the record straight and help people to understand.

At the end of the day all adults should be free to make their own decisions about who they want to have a relationship with, it’s a philosophy called live and let live, something people need to learn.

and he STILL insists we’re the same person:

Jane Dow lol Nice try, Keith. Couldn’t wait more than 15 mins to reply. But anyway, “Jane” allow me to make you aware your argument isn’t that different than NAMBLA’s.

Nice copy and paste job, BTW. 😛

Now he compares us to NAMBLA, that disgusting pedophile advocacy organization

Somebody else wrote:

EW Keith you and so many others here are all sick in the head who think this is OK. It’s the new brain-dead generation.

Brain dead? We’re not the ones whose sole argument is reduced to name calling.

Another person said:

People will be marrying their pets in my lifetime. That’s how perverted this world has become.

Which has to do with the subject of incest…. how exactly?

A very sensible person wrote this:

[name removed] – HUGE difference between NAMBLA and what Keith and Jane are talking about. NAMBLA believes it is ok to be with children. Keith and Jane do not believe this – both have stated “consenting adults” and feel it is never okay to be with children.

He replied:

[name removed] I wasn’t talking about belief structure or making a comparison between the two different types of “love”. I was referring to the logic of his argument.

I’ve had a nap since then anyway and I’ve come to the conclusion that anyone who condones incest is mentally ill and holding a debate with such person is like holding a discussion with a Furby.

Translation: I can’t find any legitimate argument against what these people say, I’m just going to insult them instead.

A few more exchanges take place, and by this point I’m getting quite pissed off, so I respond with this:

[name removed] I’m getting annoyed with you now. NOBODY from our community is arguing, or would argue for bestiality or pedophilia. In both instances there is a non-consenting party. Children cannot consent and animals cannot consent. Actually we’ve repeatedly spoken out AGAINST such abuses on our websites. Keith has already pointed out earlier in this thread that we do not condone child abuse. We’re advocating for CONSENTING ADULTS to be allowed to have their relationships and live their lives in peace without interference from the law or anyone else for that matter.

Conflating incest in general with pedophilia is like conflating a teacher who molests a student with sex in general, or conflating a pedophile priest who molests his alter boys with homosexuality in general…. see the disconnect here? A pedophile is a pedophile regardless of whether the victim is related or not, and either way it’s equally wrong.

Why is pedophilia wrong? Because IT HAS A VICTIM, the child is unable to give consent.

But between adult relatives? There is NO VICTIM becaue adults are able to consent, regardless of whether or not they are related. Why the hell do you want to persecute people for having loving relationships when they aren’t harming anyone? How does it negatively effect your life to allow people to live in peace?

You haven’t answered any of our points, all you’ve done is repeat the same old tired shit and then upped the ante by comparing us to pedophiles. You’re not interested in a logical debate because you will lose, so instead you’re relying on emotive arguments and hoping that nobody notices.

there were more exchanges after this, I’ll let you read the rest of that thread for yourself, it’s high octane entertainment.

Let’s take some of the most ridiculous comments left for your entertainment, delving into the mindset of incestophobic haters.

You admit your are sick. This explains the rest of the sickos here who think it’s ok for the dyke to marry her mom. LOL My goodness. I’m happy because I’m going to go to Heaven. The sick ones, well… God does forgive. But I’m sure the sick ones do not believe in God. But if you sickos do believe in God then you are a liar because you didn’t read the Bible.

This is a logical fallacy it presents two options as being the only options. In this case it implies that you’re either a Christian or an Atheist, and that if you’re consang then you’re not a Christian therefore you must be an atheist and will go to hell…. also the name calling… What would Jesus do? I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t leave such an asinine comment.

Here’s another one:

Well it sounds like Keith Pullman is one sick and twisted human being. Who breeds these people? Are they products of a libertard and Buffalo Bob? God gave people a brain and some people common sense. Apparently you accepted the partially functioning brain and rejected any form of sense. You are a very tortured and disturbed person that is more than likely beyond any form of intelligent reasoning. If you have children hopefully child protective services sees these comments and puts you on their pervert watch list. Also just to let you know your choices here have very serious and permanent consequences so maybe just keep that in mind the next time you get all horny around your hesheit offspring or animals or whatever else has a functioning hole around your barn.

He clearly didn’t read a word of what Keith wrote, and at no point did he (or anyone else) condone bestiality.

he later says:

lol!!! Man I love how insanely retarded you people are. Sometimes I think God made you liberals just for our entertainment. Actually not a backward hick. Well educated and able to hold down and decent job. Just hard working American family. Sometimes the problem is old misguided farts like you that even though you have years you missed out on the wisdom part. They are called Democrats if I’m not mistaken. Maybe sometime when you people sit down and think for a second about how insanely ridiculous it is to defend crap like this you might have a chance at surviving your own stupidity.

Another poster also started throwing hate at Keith:

Keith Pullman sicko…..stop being a perverted retarded freako…you need to locked away from society or moved to live with the Islamic Muslims where you fit in with the demons from hell. I sure hope some one reports you to be investigated…hmmm maybe I will. yes.

What the hell does Islam have to do with this? Nothing. The chances that this idiot will report Keith are remote, and even if they did… he’s just an ALLY, and isn’t doing anything illegal. Nobody can stop him from running his website and from continuing his leadership role in this community. This moron clearly hadn’t got any legitimate counter argument, and so name calling with a side order of comparing us to Muslims was in order… saw WHAT? He does know that Islamic nations are amongst the most sexually conservative and repressed in the world… right? Probably not. I told him to grow up.

The next ridiculous comment brings with it a bit of good old fashioned racism:

White people problems

Right, because incest is so exclusive to the white race… really? I’m white myself, but I’m actually to amused by the sheer stupidity to even be offended.

Racism wasn’t enough? How about suggesting state sponsored homicide:

Both if them should be executed. Our society is going down hill faster and faster. This is repulsive. I am stunned by the lack of disgust/support for these reprobates in this thread.

Yes, because murdering anyone who does something you don’t like is a sure way of improving society. That’s called fascism.

That’s just a small sampling of outrageous comments. Of course to read them all, and the original article, click on the first link I provided.

Not a single one of the commenters made a valid point, they all kept repeating the discredited mutant babies argument. We’ve heard it all before, and no doubt we will hear it again. But the nature of these comments digs deep into the incestophobic mind, scrambling desperately to find a legitimate argument, and upon finding none it lashes out with name calling and insults.

They call us sick but their behavior shows them to be less rational than us, they claim to be tolerant of other lifestyles and yet they pile the hate on us. Their behaviour isn’t a triumphant gloat, it is a sign of desperation because they know very well that they already lost this debate. If you’ve experienced incestophobia in your own life, do not despair, there is light and the end of the tunnel and we ARE going to win. Love, justice and truth will always win simply because they must.

Identifying coercive relationships

It’s rather sad that I even have to write this, but every now and then you hear about a relationship in which, despite everyone being over the age of consent, there was a coercive element to it. In this article I want to outline exactly what counts as coercion, and why it’s inherently unhealthy.

Coercion is generally understood to mean getting somebody to do something that they would not otherwise do by making not doing it a less appealing option. This could be achieved either by threatening or implying a penalty for non-compliance. For instance, if you had a friend whose washing machine had broken down said ‘do my laundry and I’ll buy you a pack of beers’ that might be enough of an incentive to load the washing machine, but it isn’t coercion because your friend is offering you a reasonable recompense for the inconvenience of doing their laundry. If however that friend said ‘you know, friends are supposed to help each other out, you are my friend aren’t you? Put this in the machine for us won’t you?’ then that is coercive. While there is no direct threat of any immediate punishment, it would guilt you into compliance because it would make you think that you were being a bad friend if you didn’t. So the punishment for non-compliance would be psychological.

Such tactics reduce a persons freedom without them even realizing it. Let’s look at this from another angle, if you’re locked in a room, could you freely choose to remain in the room? No, you can’t, because you are not able make any other choice. You can only freely choose to remain in a room when the option of leaving it is also freely available. Of course you might choose to stay in the room if there was an incentive to do so, such as your favourite show being on TV in there, but that is a genuine choice.

So now let’s apply the same logic to coercive relationships. A person is being coerced if he or she fears some kind of penalty, emotional or otherwise if they leave the relationship, or if they were pressured into it because the other person made them feel like they ‘should’ be with them, perhaps appealing to a sense of duty.

In the context of consanguine relationships, if somebody was convinced that ‘looking after your family’ includes fulfilling their sexual needs, and that all good people look after their family, then that person would experience a lot of guilt for not participating in incestuous activity. It would be something he or she did out of a sense of duty, because their morality would be such that they would believe that they would be bad human beings if they didn’t go along with it. That is the punishment element of coercion at work. Needless to say, this is really really unhealthy and it is a form of abuse, although much more subtle than many forms of abuse.

People who have been coerced, whether it’s in a regular relationship or a consang one, might not even realize it at the time because it’s so subtle. Often it takes people years to realize that they’ve actually been through this sort of systematic programming and to sort out the reasons why they feel and act the way that they do. Only by divorcing their sense of self worth from their participation in sexual activity can they see clearly what happened to them and begin to heal and move on. Such a shift is in fact a complete change or world-view, and for some people it can happen suddenly but for others it’s a more gradual process.

Here are some links to some resources and articles if you or someone you know has been affected:

http://www.loveisrespect.org/content/what-sexual-coercion/

http://www.bustle.com/articles/67926-is-it-rape-if-you-say-yes-5-types-of-sexual-coercion-explained

http://www.hiddenhurt.co.uk/coercive_sexual_abuse.html

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/26/victims-sexual-coercion-blind-to-crime

 

Likely accidental incest plotline in EastEnders

The fans are going mad, and not in a good way, all because an accidental incest plotline appears to be in the pipeline in the British soap EastEnders. While I don’t usually watch it, I might just tune in just to see how this storyline is portrayed, because, as we all know, these things matter in terms of how such portrayals influence public opinion.

Television’s having the trouble now of competing in a market where Game of Thrones exists – so can it be all that much of a surprise to see beloved TV soap EastEnders chuck a little incest in the mix for shock value?

The fact that incest is considered shocking in itself is lamentable, but I really do hope that the issue is covered in a more sensible way and not just as some clichéd tragedy. Incest, both accidental and otherwise happens in real life, and of course, anything that happens in real life should be portrayed realistically on television. Sadly the public knows so little about our people due to insane legislation that keeps us in the closet, that such accurate portrayals are an extremely rare gem. I don’t hold particularly high hopes for this reason, but we can always hope.

Clearly hoping to nab the spotlight from the Lannisters,EastEnders has seen newcomer Mark Fowler Jnr arrive on the scene to start shamelessly flirting with the women of Walford, including one Courtney Mitchell.

Wait…. shamelessly? I wasn’t aware that flirting was supposed to be shameful, and we must also remember that at this point, Mark  isn’t even aware that Courtney is indeed his half sibling. From his perspective, she is a woman he just met and who he fancies. Even if they were both aware of their parentage, it still wouldn’t be shameful, it would be a normal natural GSA situation.

What the pair don’t know, however, is that Fowler is actually the son of Grant Mitchell himself; convceived after a passionate one-night stand between Michelle Fowler and Grant way back in 1997. 

Making Mark Fowler Jnr and Courtney Mitchell, daughter of Grant, half-brother and sister, and the flirty exchange shared between the pair as they headed out to Notting Hill Carnival not exactly appropriate. 

Inappropriate why? Again, at this point they are unaware of these facts, and even if they weren’t…. this stuff happens in real life. There are many healthy, loving and beautiful couples out there who are closely related, good people who contribute to society and harm nobody. There is nothing inappropriate about it, at all.

“Courtney Mitchell, don’t believe we’ve met,” she introduces herself to Mark; who responds, “Only in my dreams.” 

Fans are pretty certain where that storyline is bound to end up. 

While this chat up line may contain more cheese than a cheddar factory, it would be very unremarkable if it not for the fact that they are related. So let’s take a look at some of the tweets posted in the article.

Courtney and Mark don’t know that they have the same dad? The writers better not think about doing what I think they might do

Courtney and Mark flirting 😂 they’re siblings

Uh oh I hope we don’t get an accidental incest story coming up between Mark Jnr and Courtney

I could go on, but these three pretty much sum up most peoples reactions, they don’t want this storyline. Why? Because it makes them feel uncomfortable that’s why. Incest is a great unknown to most people, and unknowns are uncomfortable and scary, especially when the Westermarck effect is telling them that this particular unknown is icky.

Actually, these kinds of comments show why these storylines are needed, because if tackled correctly and realistically, they could help to challenge wrongful attitudes in society. At this point in time I don’t hold my breath, but one would hope that they don’t turn this into a freak show bonanza.